"Casual" content thoughts

[Fynlar]

I am concerned that the game is gradually giving out less and less content for the casuals (for instance, this is the very first time we've had a previous patch's dungeons remain in our EX roulette because even though we went down to a Duty Coin Flip for our expert "roulette" in 3.x, you really can't make a roulette out of 1 dungeon) and worry about it potentially being because too much focus is placed upon fights like Ultimate coil, which a scant few of the playerbase are even going to be good enough to complete while it is still relevant.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Savage isn't midcore content; savage 1 and 2 aren't a part of their own content cluster. They're a part of Savage Omega just like 3 and 4. It's really all one entity, the rewards and progression are all tied in together.

The devs literally consider the first two raids to be on a separate tier from the second two in each tier. It's definitely been like this since Gordias, and it's arguably been like this for most of Coil too if you ignore Turn 3 (which is more of an interlude than a legitimate raid, no loot and all). It's really evident if you look at each of the fights and which has been the most problematic and/or mechanic heavy (A3S being perhaps the most infamous example, with T7S being perhaps the one notable subervsion, many citing it as harder than the rest despite being the second raid of four)

They've also billed Shinryu EX as being a fight they recommend specifically for those who can consistently beat O1S and O2S but are struggling to complete O3S, which is more admission on their part that a divide exists at that particular point in raid clusters.

[Sandpark]

My definition of casual and I consider myself one most of the time except lately.

• Play in short 30min -3 hour spurts
• Doesn't bother looking up game info or desire to be a perfectionist
• Fun, fun before perfect clear or server first(In one dungeon after 1 bad pull, tank says god I hate dps and leaves, Mr. Serious face?)
• Drifts from game to game whichever feels more fun in that moment

There are some other things that mean casual to me but those are more debatable. Like there is not really a right word for someone who prefers hard or easy content, but a casual doesn't want to be a professor of mathematics or view 100 videos on how to become a god at a class, they might still be good with less studying. An elitist is someone who studies their game to the tee, plays rather damn well, but loves criticizing other who do not game the same way.

For me midcore is someone who has a good amount of time to play but not all day save for a binge day or two every now and then. They do like being knowledgeable on game systems, but not necessarily masters. Want a meaningful means of progression without needing to live in the game.

Hardcore to me means you study every nuance of the game, play for hours upon hours, and strive for perpetual progression.

Like I said, I don't even call raider lifers in particular hardcore unless they do raids all the time, but are more that spectrum of players who demand super challenging content. Not elitist until they begin critiquing everyone else with or without someone asking for tips.

[RiyahArp]

I'm not going to go find the person who posted a video of him playing with his feet due to disability on these forums but its out there. Very inspirational and he played extremely well. Makes you wonder how long he spent to adapt to be able to play that well.

You don't see the disabled people who can't play video games at all, because they don't make youtube videos about it that go viral due to flattering people's sense of how accessible their game is. The guy who plays FFXIV with his feet is a huge outlier, who in part probably made it his way of coping with his disability and creating an identity and a purpose out of it. That shouldn't be used in the sense that anyone can do it, any more than a disabled person running in a marathon means anyone can train to run in a marathon.

There is also the failure to see that there is a middle ground in terms of difficult: take some of the posts in this thread and others, where people claim that anyone asking for “harder” or “more engaging” content are automatically demanding that it be “Savage tier.” There is a middle ground between “easy mode/Baby’s First MMO” and “savage”. Making content “more engaging” is not going to “scare away” the casual players.

We have that. It's called the EX Primals, and everyone seems to hate them. What people don't want is the casual side becoming more like them. If you think ex roulette is bad now, imagine when you queued for it, it would be like your average pickup primal group. Skip Soar or disband.

People don't seem to get that harder content doesn't mean you still get to clear it 95% of the time apart from that one random ice mage.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You don't see the disabled people who can't play video games at all, because they don't make youtube videos about it that go viral due to flattering people's sense of how accessible their game is. The guy who plays FFXIV with his feet is a huge outlier, who in part probably made it his way of coping with his disability and creating an identity and a purpose out of it. That shouldn't be used in the sense that anyone can do it, any more than a disabled person running in a marathon means anyone can train to run in a marathon.

You're missing the forest for the trees. You cannot design content around the assumption people will have disabilities or handicaps lest it all stagnates. Per your example, are we going to start making marathons easier because some people are physically incapable of running them? Furthermore, just become a disabled person can't necessarily do something doesn't mean they expect the world to bend over for them. In fact, very few actually want that. They want to persevere in their own way not have their hands held.

We have that. It's called the EX Primals, and everyone seems to hate them. What people don't want is the casual side becoming more like them. If you think ex roulette is bad now, imagine when you queued for it, it would be like your average pickup primal group. Skip Soar or disband.

People don't seem to get that harder content doesn't mean you still get to clear it 95% of the time apart from that one random ice mage.

People don't hate them. Raiders simply how they have steadily been neutered. Has it ever occurred to you that constant reduction in difficulty contributes to players apathy; i.e., they don't improve because everything keeps getting easier. Skip Soar memes were born because the DPS check was so pitiful, a proper opener with a standard comp should be more than enough. It's not asking much for people to know their job. Zurvan proved just how few people actually know a proper rotation, or can't be bothered to learn. If this game instilled a better difficulty curve, you would likely see less of this as players would continuously reach a reasonable wall relative to their current skill sets they needs overcome. Instead, we see content that dies with barely an effort put forth juxtaposed with content that wipes the raid for even one error. Zurvan epitomized it better than any. Skip Soar and the entire fight breaks—to the point he literally does nothing of note for 50% of his HP. Don't Skip Soar and people can't handle a mechanic that isn't even difficult to begin with. Now if the normal node better prepared players, maybe this gets avoided.

[Sylvina]

They've also billed Shinryu EX as being a fight they recommend specifically for those who can consistently beat O1S and O2S but are struggling to complete O3S, which is more admission on their part that a divide exists at that particular point in raid clusters.

Considering on my main class I can kill the SSS O4s Dummy with 12 seconds remaining, and still have 1% on the shinryu ex dummy when time runs out, Shinryu Ex seems to require MORE dps than O4s.

[Sylvina]

You don't see the disabled people who can't play video games at all, because they don't make youtube videos about it that go viral due to flattering people's sense of how accessible their game is. The guy who plays FFXIV with his feet is a huge outlier, who in part probably made it his way of coping with his disability and creating an identity and a purpose out of it. That shouldn't be used in the sense that anyone can do it, any more than a disabled person running in a marathon means anyone can train to run in a marathon.

Even your analogies here are flawed. Any very HEALTHY person can train to run in a marathon. and Any person who has the desire and patience to clear can clear the content in this game, provided they are also healthy in the ways which matter for computer games.

Also fun before clear should not be unique to the casual player mentality. Fun before clear needs to be embraced by all, clear before fun is why we have toxic assholes in raiding.

[RiyahArp]

YPeople don't hate them. Raiders simply how they have steadily been neutered. Has it ever occurred to you that constant reduction in difficulty contributes to players apathy.

No, sigh it doesn't work that way. You are assuming all players treat the game like you would.

Let me put it this way. Let's assume instead of royal menagerie, the last fight was slightly harder than Susano EX. I don't think I'd be wrong in thinking you'd find this good, and that you believe players would rise to beat it, and then go on. But I think players would probably go through trying to beat it, a lot would fail or get sick of it, and a lot more would realize that after the week or two it took to beat him in PUG that the rest of the game would probably be even harder, and ditch endgame entirely. It's not apathy in that sense...it's that they don't find the process of raid-level optimization fun, nor the whole "whale on a fifteen minute fight for dozens of tries wiping constantly until you beat it or bust." idea that endgame is in this game.

This is what I meant by savageification...if farming tomes was like farming Zurvan, you wouldn't get a good playerbase. You'd get a lot of people at ilvl 320 not farming tomes. You can't really assume everyone wants to rise to the challenge and enjoys this game's hard content.

[Fynlar]

Considering on my main class I can kill the SSS O4s Dummy with 12 seconds remaining, and still have 1% on the shinryu ex dummy when time runs out, Shinryu Ex seems to require MORE dps than O4s.

*shrug* I don't bother with SSS dummies, they're pretty inaccurate representations of how actual fights with actual mechanics go anyway. Test your rotations and your DPS on them if you want, sure, but they're not really helpful for determining how well you'd be able to both handle a fight's mechanics + still contribute the expected level of DPS despite those mechanics... since there's no mechanics.

Even something as simple as a mob turning around to use an attack on one of your healers can considered a DPS-hampering mechanic, as if you don't expect it coming you can whiff a positional because of it. That's a sort of thing that will only come with fight knowledge and practice, not dummies.

[Sylvina]

*shrug* I don't bother with SSS dummies, they're pretty inaccurate representations of how actual fights with actual mechanics go anyway. Test your rotations and your DPS on them if you want, sure, but they're not really helpful for determining how well you'd be able to both handle a fight's mechanics + still contribute the expected level of DPS despite those mechanics... since there's no mechanics.

Even something as simple as a mob turning around to use an attack on one of your healers can considered a DPS-hampering mechanic, as if you don't expect it coming you can whiff a positional because of it. That's a sort of thing that will only come with fight knowledge and practice, not dummies.

I know all that but they're designed to show you if you have the dps required for a fight provided you do mechanics, and as such are given HP based on the dps a fight requires.

[Yeol]

Considering on my main class I can kill the SSS O4s Dummy with 12 seconds remaining, and still have 1% on the shinryu ex dummy when time runs out, Shinryu Ex seems to require MORE dps than O4s.

This is strange, Shinryu EX dummy has more HP than O4S for tanks only.