"Casual" content thoughts

[Mycow8me]

I'm not going to go find the person who posted a video of him playing with his feet due to disability on these forums but its out there. Very inspirational and he played extremely well. Makes you wonder how long he spent to adapt to be able to play that well.

[Avatre]

I'm not going to go find the person who posted a video of him playing with his feet due to disability on these forums but its out there. Very inspirational and he played extremely well. Makes you wonder how long he spent to adapt to be able to play that well.

There are very many stories/videos/articles/examples of people overcoming their "disability" to be superb gamers. And before someone says "Why is disabilities in quotations?!", the reason for that is because those people don't see it as a shortcoming most of the time, but more of a challenge to better themselves.

One story I recently read, while not for FFXIV, is for something that needs LOTS of communication. In Destiny 2 the Leviathan raid has parts where you HAVE to talk to each other to get past certain parts(in the gauntlet section the runners say which hole has light around it, and the people outside shoot the triangles NOT called; for the final boss you need to call out three symbols and kill an enemy floating above the fourth - things like that). Apparently a completely deaf team beat the raid(didn't go into specifics of how, but that's 6 people who are so in-sync - probably in the same room also to check screens - who can't hear each other).

So, it's completely possible that people will adapt and overcome whatever "shortcomings" they have to, quite likely, be better than most people who don't have that disadvantage.

[RiyahArp]

I'm not going to go find the person who posted a video of him playing with his feet due to disability on these forums but its out there. Very inspirational and he played extremely well. Makes you wonder how long he spent to adapt to be able to play that well.

You don't see the disabled people who can't play video games at all, because they don't make youtube videos about it that go viral due to flattering people's sense of how accessible their game is. The guy who plays FFXIV with his feet is a huge outlier, who in part probably made it his way of coping with his disability and creating an identity and a purpose out of it. That shouldn't be used in the sense that anyone can do it, any more than a disabled person running in a marathon means anyone can train to run in a marathon.

There is also the failure to see that there is a middle ground in terms of difficult: take some of the posts in this thread and others, where people claim that anyone asking for “harder” or “more engaging” content are automatically demanding that it be “Savage tier.” There is a middle ground between “easy mode/Baby’s First MMO” and “savage”. Making content “more engaging” is not going to “scare away” the casual players.

We have that. It's called the EX Primals, and everyone seems to hate them. What people don't want is the casual side becoming more like them. If you think ex roulette is bad now, imagine when you queued for it, it would be like your average pickup primal group. Skip Soar or disband.

People don't seem to get that harder content doesn't mean you still get to clear it 95% of the time apart from that one random ice mage.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You don't see the disabled people who can't play video games at all, because they don't make youtube videos about it that go viral due to flattering people's sense of how accessible their game is. The guy who plays FFXIV with his feet is a huge outlier, who in part probably made it his way of coping with his disability and creating an identity and a purpose out of it. That shouldn't be used in the sense that anyone can do it, any more than a disabled person running in a marathon means anyone can train to run in a marathon.

You're missing the forest for the trees. You cannot design content around the assumption people will have disabilities or handicaps lest it all stagnates. Per your example, are we going to start making marathons easier because some people are physically incapable of running them? Furthermore, just become a disabled person can't necessarily do something doesn't mean they expect the world to bend over for them. In fact, very few actually want that. They want to persevere in their own way not have their hands held.

We have that. It's called the EX Primals, and everyone seems to hate them. What people don't want is the casual side becoming more like them. If you think ex roulette is bad now, imagine when you queued for it, it would be like your average pickup primal group. Skip Soar or disband.

People don't seem to get that harder content doesn't mean you still get to clear it 95% of the time apart from that one random ice mage.

People don't hate them. Raiders simply how they have steadily been neutered. Has it ever occurred to you that constant reduction in difficulty contributes to players apathy; i.e., they don't improve because everything keeps getting easier. Skip Soar memes were born because the DPS check was so pitiful, a proper opener with a standard comp should be more than enough. It's not asking much for people to know their job. Zurvan proved just how few people actually know a proper rotation, or can't be bothered to learn. If this game instilled a better difficulty curve, you would likely see less of this as players would continuously reach a reasonable wall relative to their current skill sets they needs overcome. Instead, we see content that dies with barely an effort put forth juxtaposed with content that wipes the raid for even one error. Zurvan epitomized it better than any. Skip Soar and the entire fight breaks—to the point he literally does nothing of note for 50% of his HP. Don't Skip Soar and people can't handle a mechanic that isn't even difficult to begin with. Now if the normal node better prepared players, maybe this gets avoided.

[Sylvina]

You don't see the disabled people who can't play video games at all, because they don't make youtube videos about it that go viral due to flattering people's sense of how accessible their game is. The guy who plays FFXIV with his feet is a huge outlier, who in part probably made it his way of coping with his disability and creating an identity and a purpose out of it. That shouldn't be used in the sense that anyone can do it, any more than a disabled person running in a marathon means anyone can train to run in a marathon.

Even your analogies here are flawed. Any very HEALTHY person can train to run in a marathon. and Any person who has the desire and patience to clear can clear the content in this game, provided they are also healthy in the ways which matter for computer games.

Also fun before clear should not be unique to the casual player mentality. Fun before clear needs to be embraced by all, clear before fun is why we have toxic assholes in raiding.

[Tiranadel]

Please don't use disabilities and disorders as reasons to set limits for anything. Most people with either don't like that kind of association in the first place from my experience, myself included. Actually people overcoming their supposed handicaps is a thing. The only limit you have is the one you set for yourself. All through heavensward and some of 2.0, I didn't raid cause I have essential tremor in my hands, arms, and neck and its made worse by high concentration and situation intensity. Keyboard and mouse was way to aggravating, eventually plugged a PS4 controller into my computer... Fast forward to today, currently tanking for a casual group with some friends in it and we are progressing o3s.

I can appreciate a discussion of keeping the dungeon content at current difficulty but using handicaps and disorders as the means to an end is the wrong way to go about it.

That's true. Though I'm not sure if there's much I can do about my reflexes/reaction time gradually getting worse as time goes on. I've almost always used a controller on games that support them, or using a program for those that don't. Raids/Savage, in general, is just something that never really appealed to me. I have LotA/ST to at least still get some verity/creation in the case I don't feel up to doing Expert that day.

Even though some things might annoy me, I'm fine with how the dungeons currently are. I guess it's just how things will play out in the future. I'm sure if I just practiced a bit more, I could do a bit better. Just need to not be as lazy. lol

I didn't add anything about my play time on the last post, since it was long enough. For the most part, it's usually one or two roulettes, then doing ARR/HW/SB hunts and beast tribes. Gathering and crafting is after that, depending on how I feel. Not quite sure if that would still fall under casual or not. Speaking of, I need to start working on those again.

Anyway, yeah. I don't want things to be like: "Push X to win the dungeon/raid!" If I want to do that content, then I should just step up to practice and such.

[Levy9]

There just needs to be more midcore content, tbh. There isn't much to do in the middle. The content space between easy and hardest is almost nonexistent for PvE at the moment. Savage isn't midcore content; savage 1 and 2 aren't a part of their own content cluster. They're a part of Savage Omega just like 3 and 4. It's really all one entity, the rewards and progression are all tied in together. You can't finish the progression if you don't do 3 and 4. It's not midcore content, it's simply the easiest part of a hardcore raid tier. Wouldn't it sound strange if I said the starting area in a Dark Souls game is for casual players and the later area is for hardcore players, when in reality, you have to do both if you want to finish the game?

[Kaethra]

There just needs to be more midcore content, tbh. There isn't much to do in the middle.

Can't say I disagree with this. But I've got to go devil's advocate so you understand what's actually going on.

The fact that you and I are posting on the forums means we're already a bit ahead of the curve. You probably do as I do and keep up with forum stuff to see which way meta's tend to go, what changes are coming down the road, and to see others' opinions to see a different take on how to do things.

We're not the average player. You might think of yourself as normal, maybe even somewhat on the lower end of the spectrum (not suggesting you actually do, just being rhetorical). But that is because of whom you choose to surround yourself with. You're likely a bit better at the game then you think in some cases.

Anyway, the point here is. You have the MSQ. Not just 60-70, but ARR and HW too. That is the baseline. That's also about 80% of the game. You've got another 15% which is the stuff you do outside the MSQ like extremes and raids. Then you have the final 5% of the game with savage. You're requesting that 15% to be a bit wider. Maybe even blend some stuff with the top 5% without going into it.

As I said. I'm not going to disagree with that. I'd like it too.

But what about the other 80%? Where the average player usually resides? Unfortunately they outnumber us, by a lot. That's how marketing is going to look at it. They're going to wonder why alot of time developing an update is devoted to content that less than a quarter of the player base will ever see. Its one of the biggest issues I have with MMORPGs. I'd love to see a game that focused on the endgame over the leveling game. But it'll never exist.

[Ayer2015]

There just needs to be more midcore content, tbh. There isn't much to do in the middle.

I really hope Eureka addresses this,

[Fynlar]

I am concerned that the game is gradually giving out less and less content for the casuals (for instance, this is the very first time we've had a previous patch's dungeons remain in our EX roulette because even though we went down to a Duty Coin Flip for our expert "roulette" in 3.x, you really can't make a roulette out of 1 dungeon) and worry about it potentially being because too much focus is placed upon fights like Ultimate coil, which a scant few of the playerbase are even going to be good enough to complete while it is still relevant.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Savage isn't midcore content; savage 1 and 2 aren't a part of their own content cluster. They're a part of Savage Omega just like 3 and 4. It's really all one entity, the rewards and progression are all tied in together.

The devs literally consider the first two raids to be on a separate tier from the second two in each tier. It's definitely been like this since Gordias, and it's arguably been like this for most of Coil too if you ignore Turn 3 (which is more of an interlude than a legitimate raid, no loot and all). It's really evident if you look at each of the fights and which has been the most problematic and/or mechanic heavy (A3S being perhaps the most infamous example, with T7S being perhaps the one notable subervsion, many citing it as harder than the rest despite being the second raid of four)

They've also billed Shinryu EX as being a fight they recommend specifically for those who can consistently beat O1S and O2S but are struggling to complete O3S, which is more admission on their part that a divide exists at that particular point in raid clusters.