Tank dps harrasment

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Quick question about FFLogs functionality...


If someone has set their profile to not show, eg opt out...
What happens when another player uploads a parse that contains that player?


Do they just show up as an anonymous person on the log?
Is the log even visible?
Does the site still track the anonymous player in the global meta data?


I could see issues with data validity if it doesn't take anonymous player data into account.

[Legion88]

Quick question about FFLogs functionality...


If someone has set their profile to not show, eg opt out...
What happens when another player uploads a parse that contains that player?


Do they just show up as an anonymous person on the log?
Is the log even visible?
Does the site still track the anonymous player in the global meta data?


I could see issues with data validity if it doesn't take anonymous player data into account.

Anonymous players are anonym and they will be displaayed as anonym in the logs unless the person himself looks at the log, of course he isn't anonym for himself.
They are tracked equally to all other tracked players, just the link to their real character name is hidden.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Do they just show up as an anonymous person on the log?
Is the log even visible?
Does the site still track the anonymous player in the global meta data?

If you type in their character name, you'll be given this message: "At the request of this character's owner, all parses involving this character have been hidden."

Their name will still appear on any individual log, provided you have the link, but you won't be able to look up their profile directly.

How is offering some base line protection that is not 100% reactive a nuclear approach? The only protection people have at the moment only comes in effect after the deed has been done. So they have already been negatively effected. While I am not sure what they can do, having some line of defense that at the very least offers minimal protection from it happening all together does not seem like a nuclear approach.

Because offense is reactionary. What you deem harassment or offense another may argue otherwise. Your approach takes away all individual input or objectivity and essentially says, "I've decided this needs to be fixed because it offended someone, somewhere." It's coddling. Call me callous, but we're all adults here. I think we should be capable of shrugging some mean comments from a random jerk.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Not really you would still have the ability to use it with like minded players. So how does it destroy that. Adds an extra hoop, but far from destroys the tool. While the data has no impact on me, I love FFLogs. Still does not change that for some it does have a negative impact and that the tools SE has put in place does not protect players from the abuse of said data only provides them the tools to further prevent such abuse from the same player.


An opt-in would make it so you would not have data on the tank that barely pulls 2k dps. For your static or for groups that request them you show them your logs world keeps moving. All the opt-in feature does is that no one will be able to pull the logs on random joe.

I said this earlier, who is negatively impacted? If you never set foot in any form of challenging content you will never (.000006% chance) be harassed. That's already the largest subsection of the playerbase by the community's own statement.

If you do participate in said content, but want to hide stuff, it's because you know you want a carry and don't deserve it.

If you do participate in said content and are decent you don't care because your numbers speak for yourself.

There's LITERALLY only one subset of player that is affected by this and frankly they're just upset that the gravy train ended. No more getting carried through EX's or Savage when they can barely press buttons.

The tools value is as high as it is because of how open and easy it is to view the data. As soon as you start forcing people to opt in, participation can drop, and now selection of data for people to compare against drops and you end up doing a lot of damage to the tools usefulness. If I'm a 40th percentile player and want to get better I can't just look up the rank 1 log and get good. It doesn't work that way. I need to peruse the middle section of say 80th percentile logs to find a good player with a similar comp and kill time. If you start removing all these people from searches you run into issues for anyone looking to get better.

Ya know...I had a large post plotted out in my head, filled with rebuttals and all ready to verbally duke it out over this point and while typing it out and thinking on what responses I would get. I started getting all stressed out and wound up. I then asked myself "What's the point?" and I couldn't answer. Wound myself up for something that generally doesn't effect me much and such, over a point that I doubt I could change minds so thoroughly made up about. So...yeah, heck it. I concede, you're right, I'm wrong. Just want to get rid of this stressed feeling. I mean, I still believe in the points I made but...I just don't wanna argue it anymore when the stress from the argument, combined with work stress, starts causing me actual, physical pain in my shoulders and neck. So, yeah. Again, I concede.

I hope you have a nice day and I hope you have fun with the game. Take care.

StarRosie over and out.

Going forward my advice to you would be to make sure when debating/discussing topics don't get emotionally invested or mad. Not only does it completely ruin most people's flow of logic, but it prevents you from ever being open to changing your mind. Try to focus on specific examples and quantifiable data so it's logic driven instead. These two things can really mess up a healthy discussion.

Hopefully your work situation eases up. We may be on opposite sides of the discussion, but we are not enemies. Best of luck and happy thanksgiving!

While I ultimately don't see a need for opt-in, as one can simply say "this parse is one that's actually representative of what all I can do" and just link that if it somehow came down to it, there's no reason, especially in an official tool, that an opt-in model would break the system. You still publish your own battle log, encounter time, and thereby raid dps, which is likely all that matters to you, but if anyone else wishes to also publish their information, they can choose to do so, or perhaps even contextually automate that decision (opt-in to all parses with these players, and out of any others). Unless you wish to argue that including parse publications that the player is not aware of makes his metrics more authentic or relevantly informative, neither would the purpose be in any way lost by making the publication optional.

See above for my response to breaking the system.

:: Just in principle, I hugely dislike the idea of "opt out". It means inconveniencing yourself each and every time, especially if the choice cannot be automated, and still possibly losing the choice by lack of notice or notification. If it's benign enough to be "opt out", it really needn't be optional at all. But if reasonably perceivable, in whomever's eyes, to be in whatever way threatening enough to need to be optional, then it should be opt in, not out. Just my personal preference in these regards.

I'm only 46% sure (because I've never personally done it), but once you opt out, it's a one and done thing. All further logs are always opted out. If I am wrong please let me know. I am no expert on that bit.

While things definitely do not hit that hard in this game, tankbusters do still need at least cooldowns to survive. Tank stance, no. Cooldowns, yes. I fondly recall one of the tanks in my static forgetting to CD for Exfaust’s Thunder III in V4S, dying, and then Exfaust turning around to finish the job on the poor unsuspecting melee. Always amusing when that happens, though.

Agreed, that's specifically why I mentioned tank stance and not CDs . Although I may or may not have one time taken an Aero 3 to the face completely unmitigated and lived (#shoutout to my healers).

The thing about anecdotes is that they cannot be used as any sort of quantifiable or quantitative evidence; they are already skewed in the fact that they are a personal experience, so emotions are going to get in the way as opposed to if the data presented by either side were cold, hard numbers. They cannot be used as a reliable source of data for either side. So, while they cannot be used as an adequate reason to slow/deny change, they also cannot be used as an adequate reason to prompt swift/sudden change. Because they’re anecdotes. There’s a reason why they are never used in serious research and/or debates.

On one hand I agree that anecdotes aren't super quantifiable, but on the other I quite like reading anecdotes. It really helps me understand WHY someone holds the stance they do. It can help lend credence to the facts they supplied, or draw attention to holes in a persons argument and help me guide them to better see my POV.

I don't need to change someones mind. I really don't (unless it's hilariously and obviously wrong). I just want to understand WHY they hold their view, and have them understand WHY I hold mine. I think that's why I like anecdotes.

With respect to this discussion, I tend to have a really hard time understanding where "FFLogs is bad" type of people are coming from.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

Here is the thing not many reasonable people will say FFLogs are bad, they are tool depends on how it is used. Thing is some players are nice the kindest bunch and will use whatever tool they have at their disposal to belittle and berate another. Now there is nothing we can do to eliminate such behavior, but we make little tweaks that do not impact the core game play to at the very least provide some protection that is not reactionary.

Will an opt-in add an extra hoop and potentially skew the data? Yeah, but as a whole the tool can still be used to improve ones play. Thing is SE does not officially support the use of parser, so from a logical perspective why should someone have to opt out of a feature that SE officially does not support?

It will not protect a player from all cases of parser abuse, but at the very least it will remove one aspect of it without having any effect on the core game experience. If a one tweak like that can even limit one case of harassment I am all for it. Now in practice I am not sure how much effort would have to go into making FFLogs opt-in, though I do think FFLogs would gladly comply if SE did request that they made so players had to opt-in to use a tool they officially do not support.

Once again FFLogs are not bad, it is just data just so happens that some people like to mess use said data, and while an opt-in feature will not solve all the issues, at the very least it will remove that one aspect when people look up your logs to mock a player simply because they did not know FFLogs was a thing. Sure it is one aspect of it, but it is one aspect they will no longer have to worry about unless they choose to do so by opting in.

Though in the end if people truly value the tool they will continue to support it. While state people can simply opt out, main question I have is why should they have to? Shouldn't it be the other way around since SE does not officially support parser.

I truly enjoy running parser even for basic content and while I do not raid much in FFXIV, I did do my fair share in WoW. Mostly shifted back to PvP. I truly do understand the value the tool provides, personally I just wish people did not abuse the data to mock others, but that will never be a thing so at this point I am just trying to limit certain instances that lead to such harassment without having too much of an impact on the game itself.

[HyoMinPark]

The thing about opt-in is that it will not get rid of the harassment that does occur. If someone wants to be a jerk, they will be one regardless; FFLogs be damned. It will not remove the aspect of players looking up logs; any logs that show up as hidden, like others have said, will still carry a negative connotation--e.g., "you've hidden your logs because you have something to hide" is the basic mentality people will probably use. Opt-ins and opt-outs will not fix that issue.

Of course, all of this is speculation and cannot be proven--and I do mean my post and yours. I honestly did not know about FFLogs until I started posting on here; I'd never heard it mentioned in-game before. The best way to limit harassment in a way that will not negatively affect the game is to do what others (and GMs) have suggested: report harassment, blacklist, and move on. Rather than start crusades against a group of people all because of one bad apple.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

As I have said it will not get rid of all harassment that occurs, but if it has the potential to limit even one case of harassment how is that a bad thing? For examples not sure if it was this thread or another but someone asked to join a group and instead of just being told no, they mocked them because of their numbers they had on FFLogs.

According to this person they had no idea what FFLogs were. Sure they can report and blacklist, but if FFLogs were opt in, said player may have never had to experience it. We do not know you are right.

I know it is silly, but I just did not see what is so wrong with trying to take preventive measures where it is reasonably possible. Also does not make sense how a feature that is not supported by SE has to be opt out of instead of in. As I have said before it will not fix everything but if it does prevent issues like the above example and has no real effect on the game experience that SE has crafted then why not.

Also if a feature is not integrated into the game by SE why should one be expected to go out of their way to not take part of it. I mean to hide your data on the site you need to register an account with the site, claim your characters then go to settings to hide your logs. According to https://www.fflogs.com/help/hidingcharacters

Leaving the risk of abuse aside, why is that reasonable for a player to do that does not wish to take part in something that is not part of the base game?

[HyoMinPark]

There are already measures in place: report harassment and blacklist. After that, cases are handled by GMs. If there is obvious evidence of in-game harasssment, punishment is dealt. Creating a "safe space" is not the way to go. I don't support the idea of any type of "safe space", because it won't solve anything. It will just coddle people and that's not going to do much. I don't see the need for coddling. Someone's being a jerk? Report, blacklist, be done with it. Don't demand safe spaces.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

I know I am naive and to some stupid which I am. I know many of you will never see my point I do not think I will ever see the majorities point. I understand where you are coming from, I just do not see how if something has the potential to prevent one negative experience and has very little impact on the overall game I do not see why we shouldn't do it.

I understand the position may of you share, leaving that aside. As I mentioned at the end leaving the idea of abuse out, why is it a feature that is not integrated into the game by SE why should one be expected to go out of their way to not take part of it. I mean to hide your data on the site you need to register an account with the site, claim your characters then go to settings to hide your logs. According to https://www.fflogs.com/help/hidingcharacters

Why should the everyday common player be expected to do that do for a feature not officially supported by SE?

[Shurrikhan]

...[it is] a feature that is not integrated into the game by SE...[] why should one be expected to go out of their way to not take part of it. I mean to hide your data on the site you need to register an account with the site, claim your characters then go to settings to hide your logs. According to https://www.fflogs.com/help/hidingcharacters

Why should the everyday common player be expected to do that do for a feature not officially supported by SE?

On principle I absolutely agree with you in this regard. It might not be asking much of a player, but I feel it should not be asking at all. No one should have to research potentially esoteric rule-sets of third party tools just to maintain their knowledge or consent over publications of information including them that would otherwise be indistinguishable from publications they, themselves, produced.

I don't think it's a major concern, as I haven't even once seen harassment based upon tools like fflogs, but on principle, I absolutely agree.

But as for other concerns you've mentioned as to harassment and countermeasures therefore, no countermeasures are entirely "free of cost", even if not at direct cost to the game experience, as they still cost development time at the expense of some other, likely more warranted, creation.