Tank dps harrasment

[KaldeaSahaline]

This is the point, as I have said I do not care how often it happens, my position if it has the potential to either prevent or mitigate harassment by 1% it is worth the expense.

So if we remove cars, no matter how inconvenient, it will reduce automobile related accidents. I am assuming you stand for this as well. We cannot have a single car accident. Me must shelter the people from this risk. I am assuming you do not own a car so you don't risk killing anyone and walk everywhere correct?

We should get rid of the internet because people get bullied sometimes. Why are you using the internet if its something that breeds bullies?

Where do you draw the line? I get what you're saying, but your methods are so extreme and short-sighted you're doing more harm than good shutting yourself down and not being open to a change of opinion.

As I said this would not end harassment, but in the case of my FC mates that have terrible logs due but as FC we are hyper causal and have no qualms carrying a person through content or if they run content with other groups that understand the difficulties they have, and if they need help simply ask within the FC or friends of the FC. The FC members in question sometimes want to do content and since we as a whole we are not good enough to carry three people through content, and other groups are busy we have to rotate them around.

So when they are not up in the rotation sometimes they try outside means, which results in some colorful responses. Now here hard part, I know some of the people that have made these rude comments to our FC mates in the past did not make said comments with malicious intent, and I do not think of them as bad people. The logs and players in question would make anyone go WTF. Granted now it does not happen since we found out we could hide logs. Just the way I see it if it happens to FC members that have difficulties like ours, there might be others that have gone through similar situations, that simply could have been avoided if they did not have any logs. My position is based on emotion, and yeah it is naive, but as I have said before even if it only prevents 1 report a year for me personally that is worth the time and expense.

I'm not 100% sure I follow this. You're saying you have players in your FC who are not skilled. You are running them through content as an FC (nothing wrong with this). However sometimes you are short people to help so you try pugging the remainders. You do not disclose that you are carrying x people who have no business being in said content and the pugs you recruited are questioning why these people are here when they continually fail or get carried.

Am I understanding this correctly? If so - you see no issue with this? Specific examples would go a long way here to giving me context to your post. What content, how many players, what skill level, etc.

Though leaving out the potential harassment, let me ask you this how is it reasonable to expect players that buy FFXIV and wish to not be part of third party feature especially one not provided nor supported by SE to go to a third party site, register and link accounts, claim characters just to keep their logs hidden? Let us leave the any issue of harassment out of this, how is that reasonable expectation?

How reasonable is it that I search every single profile of every person in the world if they accidentally captured me in a photo? Not very reasonable.

How is it reasonable for me to have a stake in an small town in Australia's gov't matters when I live in a NJ suburb? Not very reasonable.

This all goes back to my statement about subsets. If you don't ever do anything but roulette, or triple triad, who the hell cares what your logs say?

Do you think I care what an ex who moved to singapore says about me in another language to some dude she's banging?

Not in the least.

That's my point though. You asked a silly question. It's not reasonable if it doesn't affect them.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

As I have said in the past, if the change provided has the potential to limit harassment without altering the core function why not do it? As I have said my request is more akin to adding more crosswalks or extending the allotted time for pedestrians to cross the street. Said change would inconvenience drivers but it would not have an overall large impact on how they commute to work. My change is not extreme, while my mindset to you may be considered extreme the change I have proposed is far from extreme it will be a minor inconvenience at best for those that wish to use the tool.

As for the second part sorry if I did explain it well enough for you. Our FC has members that have certain limitations, and we try to make it know to those members that if they need something they can simply ask us or other allies to the FC that understand the limitations they have. However, at our core group is not good enough to carry three to four people through more relevant content so we rotate them around instead of taking four sometimes we only take two of them along so they can see the content. Now the issue is the players that have been rotated out may seek another group to tackle said content which at times results in hurtful comments which results in a negative experience that could have been avoided if logs were opt-n since if said group asked for the logs they would no clue what they are or how to obtain them. That being said we had no clue that we could hide logs prior to this.

On to how you interrupted what I wrote let us say that was the case, where in that post was mentioned no one disclosed info that it was a carry group? Not even sure how you got to that point, I know my command of the English language is rather weak, but I am not really sure how you got to that point. Though your example is interesting though in that in the past when we were much smaller we did try to fill spots with PUGS telling them that it was a carry group, and to not expect much from two of the DPS. Some people did say they understood, but they underestimated us in when we said do not expect much and one player did berate said members out of frustration. Which is understandable that is why I do not like the simple report and move on, since at the core a lot of these players do not make said comments with malicious intent, and most of the time they stem from frustration. That is why we have made it a policy for said members to request help from within the FC or allies tied to the FC if they do not want to risk harassment.

Though the context is simple, if this has happened to members of my FC, one cannot deny the possibility that it has happened to others who share similar circumstances, and a simple opt-in feature would go a long way to prevent such issues, while offering very little impact on how the tool's usefulness. While in a normal situation many could brush off negative feedback like nothing, others do not. So if a change that has very little impact on the overall game itself can even mitigate 1% of harassment why not do it? I get that overall it will not help much, and while I would love to remove all harassment I know that it is an impossible task while keeping within the realms of being reasonable, however my request is far from unreasonable.

Overall please understand I do not want the removal of the tool in question. My request is not akin to removing all cars from the roads because it will reduce automobile related accidents. Since I have stated to know that nothing will get rid of harassment, as I have said while it would be a wonderful if it was not a thing, I by no means think it is reasonable to bring forth ideas that function on the bases of removing harassment all together. Impossible tasks are impossible. As I have said my request is more akin to adding extra crosswalks and increasing the allotted time for pedestrians to cross the street. While not a perfect solution but still mitigates the potential risk for said pedestrians while having a relatively small impact on drivers as a whole. It will inconvenience drivers, but will not force them to make major alterations to their commute.

When it comes to the issue of harassment we probably we never see eye to eye, and while I am sure parser abuse is not a wide spread thing, it does happen, and no matter how infrequent if changes can be done that prove to force players to alter their play style in a drastic way (this is something only SE can know) and even if the change in question seems inconsequential if that change even has the slightest chance to curb harassment even by 1% I am all for it, and I know I will not change any minds here, I highly doubt you will say anything that will change mine.

Now regarding your last point. You examples do not take into account one thing. FFXIV is a product provided by SE. Please tell me why a feature that is not integrated into the game by SE places an expectation on the player that does not wish to be part of a feature that is not supported by SE have to register an account with the site, claim your characters then go to settings to hide ones logs? If people want to use FFLogs the burden should be placed on them since they are the ones that wish to use a third party program, not the other way around. Granted I understand it is not much to ask of a player to do, but the point is it should not be asked of a player at all. FFLogs is not part of the product one gets when they buy FFXIV, it is not a listed feature so it should not be forced on anyone period. For us that wish to FFLogs we can, just means an extra hoop we have to go through. A consumer of a game should not be forced to opt out of a feature not supported by developer. Does it happen? Sure, still does not make it right.

[Dualgunner]

Your arguments come off as unreasonable for two main reasons:
1: its the nuclear option
You have noble intentions: you want to prevent people being hurt no matter what. But like Kaldea said, you're essentially asking for cars to be outlawed.
2: you have no proof this would even affect anything
Its been brought up to you that the people who would harass for low logs would harass for hidden logs. Even thrn you've never quantified how many are harassed, which while you stand by "if even 1 person is harassed that's bad", this also means you cannot tell us or prove to us that harassment will go down, or indeed, that it ever went up in the advent of fflogs.

[Awha]

Snip. . .

Call me crazy but I get this feeling that you two think I want the total removal of FFLogs, I am not sure where I said that but that was never my intent.

How is making a feature opt in a nuclear option? I am asking for more crosswalks and extended time for pedestrians to cross the street. That is all, will it inconvenience people sure, but far from the fact of forcing them to alter their commute. No one has proof on this subject, though if something has the potential to prevent even one case without causing people to change their very way of being why not do it? I have never stated to have proof, but if the potential is there to even prevent one case shouldn't it be looked at? As I have said we just have a different mindset when it comes to this, if opt-in will prevent even one person from getting looked up on logs and then proceed to called a shitter instead of simply saying sorry you do not met our groups requirements, and making it opt-in has been proven (by only people that can SE) to have no impact on the game why not make the change?

In the end only people that can prove anything is SE, leaving that aside though if a change like opt-in even removes one case of harassment isn't that an okay trade off? I mean to upload the data we have to create an account anyways, so making it opt-in would not change much of anything just adds an extra step after the account creation on FFLogs.

In the end we are still talking about a third party feature that is not supported by SE being something players have to opt out of. Which in itself makes no sense. We can leave all other arguments at the door, makes no sense no matter little work is involved would have to go to a third party site, make an account, to hide info they had no intention nor told when they bought game would be shared and accessible by any player that happens to know your characters name.

[Dualgunner]

How is making a feature opt in a nuclear option? I am asking for more crosswalks and extended time for pedestrians to cross the street. That is all, will it inconvenience people sure, but far from the fact of forcing them to alter their commute. No one has proof on this subject, though if something has the potential to prevent even one case without causing people to change their very way of being why not do it? I have never stated to have proof, but if the potential is there to even prevent one case shouldn't it be looked at?

It's the nuclear option because you're asking for official action on a third party site. The moment Square has to act on it, their only option is to shut the whole thing down given their official stance on parsing.

And the problem is, no. You cannot prove there is even the potential to prevent one singular case; you can't even prove that this wouldn't cause even more harassment than it solves. That's why you don't do it; you don't act without the proper data, because if you do there's the chance you hurt more people than you help.

In the end only people that can prove anything is SE, leaving that aside though if a change like opt-in even removes one case of harassment isn't that an okay trade off? I mean to upload the data we have to create an account anyways, so making it opt-in would not change much of anything just adds an extra step after the account creation on FFLogs.

You don't know if it would even remove one case of harassment. As I've pointed out, it's more likely to cause more cases of harassment. If you prevent one case of harassment, but cause two more, what did you really do in the long run?

if opt-in will prevent even one person from getting looked up on logs and then proceed to called a shitter instead of simply saying sorry you do not met our groups requirements, and making it opt-in has been proven (by only people that can SE) to have no impact on the game why not make the change?

Where has it been proven? Up till now you claimed no evidence, but now you just made a claim that needs evidence.
Opt in will not prevent one person from being looked up on FFlogs. It will cause the phrase "Open logs or kick" to become mainstream. It will cause more harassment than it already does. Get off your moral "If I can just save one person..." crusade, because by saving that one theoretical person you're opening up who knows how many more to worse scrutiny.

I have always prefixed this if it has the potential to help even just a little by SE why not give it a try? Where is the harm? In the end though only way to prove something is to try it.

Because the only action they can take regarding FFLogs is to destroy it, given their official stance on parsers. If they acted in any other way, they'd be endorsing parsers; their neutral position up until now is a big "If I don't see it, it's not a problem" which stops them from directly acting on sites like FFLogs.

If they were to do what you suggested, they might as well implement a first-party system, break FFLogs, and then host their own damage leaderboards. The forums would be on the brightest fire you can imagine.

[Ayer2015]

58 pages later, and this is still going....
I understand squeezing out all the dps you can in savage content. What I never will understand why people think they should impose it on the core casual content. Just let the community at large have their fun.....
And before people start going down the 'differing play styles, /votekick' road.... Do we really want to foster that type of community? Personally, I don't think 5-10mins extra on a DF run isn't going to impact anyone's life to a material degree.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

58 pages later, and this is still going....
I understand squeezing out all the dps you can in savage content. What I never will understand why people think they should impose it on the core casual content. Just let the community at large have their fun.....
And before people start going down the 'differing play styles, /votekick' road.... Do we really want to foster that type of community? Personally, I don't think 5-10mins extra on a DF run isn't going to impact anyone's life to a material degree.

It goes both ways those. My fun comes from large pulls and seeing just how much damage I can do during them. Comparatively, I'm bored out of my mind if a tank just one pack. If enough people feel the way I do in that particular party, why should we do one only one other person wants?

[Ayer2015]

It goes both ways those. My fun comes from large pulls and seeing just how much damage I can do during them. Comparatively, I'm bored out of my mind if a tank just one pack. If enough people feel the way I do in that particular party, why should we do one only one other person wants?

Its not an issue when the other people want to do it as well. The problems arise when the rest of the party does not want to. The general disposition I get from people on here is, play my way or get lost.

[Awful]

Its not an issue when the other people want to do it as well. The problems arise when the rest of the party does not want to. The general disposition I get from people on here is, play my way or get lost.

That's not the way people are advocating at all people want E F F O R T it's not my way or the high way I want people to actually try instead of being AFK and pulling one pack of mobs, especially with all the gear you can get easily each week from the 24 man raid and capping tomes as well as Delta normal. If I see a healer being AFK or spamming heals then i'm pulling everything that way they won't be sitting at 95% MP while spamming 2 buttons, you may see it as selfish but if they wanna heal i'll let em heal there's nothing you can't not heal in a simple 4 man 70 dungeon.

It pains me to see DPS single target in giant pulls while me and the healer are doing more damage than them, tanks not DPSing and spamming 1-2-3 in tank stance with 0 CDs, and healers barely having a heartbeat, it's an MMO, it's a team effort in a dungeon and we all want it to be over so we can move onto more things we wanna do in game. This isn't lvl 15 gameplay this extends past that.

[Ayer2015]

snip

I think going AFK is a completely separate topic, which most everyone would agree to kicking a party member over. The reality is, all tiers of dungeon roulettes are mind numbingly easy/boring. Trying to enforce personal expectations on others to clear the content outside of its imposed design is a problem.

I wish people would just focus thier "effort" expectations toward content which actually warrants it. Many different types of people play this game, and they are not all going to meet speed run expectations, which doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the game, and content which is designed specifically to cater to them.