Tank Stances, Traited

[Aana]

As for knowing what the real issue is, it has been said time and time again. The issue with tank stance is that currently, in the bulk of content, it is not needed as a stance; Attacks can be survived outside of it, enmity can held outside of tank stance and there is a noticeable dps increase outside of tank stance. All these things make tank stance unattractive to sit in, and will only be used as a glorified damage reduction cooldown before being toggled off as quickly as it can be.

I find these threads always put the cart before the horse. "The PROBLEM with tank stance is that it is unattractive to sit in". Back up 1 step. Why does tank stance need to be 'sat in'? We have labeled them as 'stances'. Mnks have stances they use for 2 sec at a time. Tank stances are a tool. An action. They increase enmity and mitigation while on and have a cost, DPS, while doing so. If you want/need the enmity/defenses you use them. If you don't, you don't.

If you OT for an entire fight, do you need to 'fix' rampart just because you don't use it? Does it need to be used to justify its spot on your bar? Does tank stance need to be used ALL THE TIME while tanking to be useful? Why any more than anything else?

If you think of stances as a tool in your belt just like every other job action, it begs the question why all the hubbub about fixing it? Its a button you push that temporarily reduces damage and temporarily increases enmity and mitigation. Does butchers need fixing because you don't use it CONSTANTLY while main tanking? Its a TANK skill it should be used to TANK! That's how these 'fix tank stance' things sound to me. Its just an action. It has its uses. You don't ride every skill on CD in every situation and that's OK. Just because its a defensive ability doesn't mean it NEEDS to be on 24/7 while taking damage. Ask why tank stances need changing before going off on how to fix a problem that may not even exist.

[shao32]

Tank stances was necesary for tanking on 2.x all the time, now are trash, even if you look at It as mere pull tools the desing is trash, the cost is stupidly high for just 10 seconds of emity and mitigation Who no one needs in 99% of the fight, its need yo be fixed to work as you say or as they intend desing but can't stay like now.

[Aana]

Tank stances was necesary for tanking on 2.x all the time, now are trash, even if you look at It as mere pull tools the desing is trash, the cost is stupidly high for just 10 seconds of emity and mitigation Who no one needs in 99% of the fight, its need yo be fixed to work as you say or as they intend desing but can't stay like now.

People have been dropping tank stance as much as possible since coil. We were sword oath tanking stuff regularly since second coil, cheesing tank busters with immunity forever. One could argue the only reason we didn't use it to the extreme in the early days was both avg skill level was lower (1st coil was much harder because the game was new, people still thought parry was good, etc. Just being bad at the game) and shirk/ninja didn't exist.

Shirk+Nin is the single thing that has done the most to reduce tank stance uptime. Even Drk who has zero enmity actions beyond their combo can pull and tank an entire fight without using power slash or grit once. If you really just HAVE to make people use more tank stance, make enmity a thing. Mitigation never really has except when we were new and sucked. Ninja+shirk, 30 sec recast on enmity jumps, etc have all reduced the need for tank stance.

But every time enmity is an actual task, tanks whine to high heaven about how hard it is to tank and the forums explode like the early days of SB, or a number of other weak enmity phases in the games history, and SE buffs the shit out of enmity again for the 20th time.

People don't actually want tanking to be a balancing act. They want it to be EZPZGG. As long as enmity is minimized, so will tank stance. So where are the threads to revive butchers and halone? They are tank skills that aren't used to tank just like stance, but at least stances have some potential to vary gameplay, express coordination and act as a safety net. Stances as a tool are less used than they used to be, but that still doesn't make them broken anymore than butchers block.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Why does tank stance need to be 'sat in'?

Because you're misinterpreting the argument. No one is arguing tank stance should be sat in, but that it ought to have a purpose beyond opening aggro or dungeon mega pulls. Right now, you'll drop stance within the first thirty seconds and rarely even look at it again. When I tanked Creator, I did Overpower -> Equilibrium -> BB combo (no-Ninja) -> Deliverance. I never looked at Defiance again. The same happens with Omega though Neo may be a small exception due to Grand Cross x resetting aggro. Basically, the point people on that side are making is how tank stance sees very little use because nothing demands it.

[Ekimmak]

I'm sure that eventually, the devs will reach their limit with the meta and create bosses that will instantly drop all hate on tanks if they drop out of tank stance so people should enjoy it while it lasts.

[Azerhan]

I'm sure that eventually, the devs will reach their limit with the meta and create bosses that will instantly drop all hate on tanks if they drop out of tank stance so people should enjoy it while it lasts.

LMAO, is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fun to play tank in tank stance... Like DRK, just for exemple.
If they do this, nobody will play tank anymore.

[Ekimmak]

LMAO, is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fun to play tank in tank stance... Like DRK, just for exemple.
If they do this, nobody will play tank anymore.

Perhaps.

But I have a special sort of hatred for the DPS meta due to how bad it got during Zurvan Ex. So if they take steps to ensure you HAVE to stay in grit/defiance/shield oath, I won't shed any tears for it. I won't enjoy losing access to things like IR or blood weapon, but I won't kick up a huge fuss over it.

[Shurrikhan]

Because you're misinterpreting the argument. No one is arguing tank stance should be sat in, but that it ought to have a purpose beyond opening aggro or dungeon mega pulls. Right now, you'll drop stance within the first thirty seconds and rarely even look at it again. When I tanked Creator, I did Overpower -> Equilibrium -> BB combo (no-Ninja) -> Deliverance. I never looked at Defiance again. The same happens with Omega though Neo may be a small exception due to Grand Cross x resetting aggro. Basically, the point people on that side are making is how tank stance sees very little use because nothing demands it.

This. E.g. We want to see the "other" button actually be an attractive choice across the whole fight. It shouldn't replace the lack of a tank stance as the most attractive choice, but it should at least feel like it has a reason for being on one's bar more than 10 seconds into a fight.

Perhaps.

But I have a special sort of hatred for the DPS meta due to how bad it got during Zurvan Ex. So if they take steps to ensure you HAVE to stay in grit/defiance/shield oath, I won't shed any tears for it. I won't enjoy losing access to things like IR or blood weapon, but I won't kick up a huge fuss over it.

And I have a special sort of hatred for gimmicks made at the cost of prior design, and designs which will try to excuse previous failures by breaking all other options. Which is what you suggested, spitball example or not.

And the thing is, that wouldn't "fix" the meta (optimization) either. It would just move it onto others, most frequently by removing the second tank from the equation via timed sacrifices (if you already have a NIN, why not put Shirk to use as more than just a enmity pad, after all?) and even more phase-pushing. Fix the stance, rather than just shifting viable choices from one side to the other through one-off gimmicks.

[Azerhan]

Perhaps.

But I have a special sort of hatred for the DPS meta due to how bad it got during Zurvan Ex. So if they take steps to ensure you HAVE to stay in grit/defiance/shield oath, I won't shed any tears for it. I won't enjoy losing access to things like IR or blood weapon, but I won't kick up a huge fuss over it.

I'd like to agree, but... If they want to do that kind of tanking in FF XIV, they need to rework tanks, because for now, I don't see where is the fun to tank. WAR in dps stance is fun. PLD don't change so much, and DRK is just... Boring to play - even in dps stance, but less than in tank stance.

But I would like a better tank playstyle for a new fight style.

[Reynhart]

WAR in dps stance is fun.

For the Fell Cleave spam that requires the boss to stand still for an atrocious amount of time ? Because, apart from that,you build and spend ressources the same wether you're in Deliverance or Defiance.