Built-in Parsers

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

I mean this as a genuine question - why do you think you can decide what is fun for other people? No one has a gun to their head to log in to their raid.

Also, to tie back in to the actual topic, the inclusion of ingame parsers wouldn't force everyone to raid. I don't know where this thread of conversation started but it's just you (and maybe others, I don't know) telling people they can't possibly have fun raiding. Maybe you should stop projecting.

[Miste]

Fun takes a back seat to getting it done. It's not fun to wipe over and over on a 3 minute segment of a fifteen minute fight
I'm not saying in general that fun is non existent, but fun really isn't why you do stuff like raiding, it's more the pleasure in achievement, closer to other things.

It's not fun for YOU.

I enjoy learning the fight on my job and talking with my boyfriend about healing strategies. Yes, we want to eventually clear the fight, but that is the fun in it, learning it and learning how to optimize my job in the fight.

Wiping is a natural part of the learning process and does not mean we aren't having fun.

I mean like I said before you can stop acting like an omniscient mind reader now. You don't have that power. Fun is why I do raiding. You can't just paint everyone with your generalization brush.

did anyone in the group notify people that standing in said spot can kill people? no? group fault.

Communicating a strategy doesn't somehow make people immune to mistakes so I don't even get what you are trying to say here. Mistakes happen even when people know the entire fight.

As you can see I already answered your question. You are just ignoring it.

I already said that even if the group notifies and explains the strategy people can still make mistakes.

Also just because people make mistakes does not mean we all finger point, it is simply a fact that one person can cause a wipe by themselves. No one said to be rude to someone just for making a mistake, but owning up to your own mistakes is also part of being an adult. It is just a fact of this game that one person can be at fault for a wipe. No one is saying that a team should be rude to that member for the mistake; simply that mistakes need and should be discussed in order to progress.

everyone here really should stop the vendetta against me as imo i did nothing wrong,

and the smile faces are letting ppl know im not being nasty/angry. That im trying to be pleasant.

You did nothing wrong? You are trying to be pleasant? You can't be serious. You were completely rude to Hyomin just because she countered your claims. Calling her "elitist" and telling her to "grow up" and saying passive aggressive things like "they are more pleasant than people like you" and you think you did nothing wrong and you actually think you are "trying to be pleasant".

I mean if you don't want people on your case then don't be rude and accept it when you end up being incorrect about something you claimed.

If you actually think you were "trying to be pleasant" with that post I mean....yeah I can only conclude you are trolling at this point.

[Oscura]

I guess you've never really practiced at something like that. believe me, it's work. You pretty much say it is with your words. The fun part after a while are the times you can ditch practice to blow off steam.

I've just gotten so used to people being ignorant and assuming things on these forums that I'm not even offended anymore. I raid in this game. I practiced playing sports in the past, I practice playing an instrument. I like to learn new things every day and practicing things is honestly one of my few forms of entertainment. It's not work. I never said it was with my own words. You simply read it that way because you have an incredibly negative mindset and simply read anything you can with the most pessimistic worldview possible. If you think ditching practice is the "fun part," "to blow off steam," I don't consider that fun, I consider it lazy and unbecoming. The difference is that I'm not going to tell everyone who thinks that being goal-oriented is "work," that they're lazy. Unlike you, who is implying that people who are goal oriented, at some point, aren't fun or don't know how to have any.

I can't believe I'm yet again wasting my time with someone who can't see that other people view things and also live their lives differently, and that their opinion isn't fact or purely based on logic. It's just that, an opinion. Stop trying to force it on the rest of us. It's an incredibly selfish, and I can't believe I'm saying it unironically, an all around toxic mindset.

[akaneakki]

@riyah. Attendance or have times for raids are there for a reason. YOU either work or been busy all day. Last thing you want to do on a game you want to beat is to swipe over again and again with people who clearly dont have the same goal as you. Statics are made with same minded people. When I work 8 hours and do gym for 2, last thing I want to do is waste mine or others time. You talk like it's fine to Waste peoples time.

[Dualgunner]

did anyone in the group notify people that standing in said spot can kill people? no? group fault.

Gave you like 8 scenarios earlier; Bourne gave a few more.

you guys are missing a lot of details in your explains such as planning before hand, run/strat explination, leadership. Which is part of doing endgame content. If people fail at doing this stuff they are part of the fault for the mistakes of others.

I'm gonna redirect you to the point from earlier.

how are people missing this part.

Because personal responsibility is a thing. Sorry you can't handle that fact.

3 ppl cherry picking posts is really nothing.

I hope you're not talking about me too. Quoting entire posts of yours and responding piece by piece is the opposite of cherry picking.

And yet you've yet to directly respond. Which is kind of a microcosm of the whole problem when you think about it: you have a preconceived notion of reality and ignore anything that contradicts that.

nor proof i "don't know what im talking about" I did endgame in ff11 for 4 years before this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

You're right: I don't have proof. But I'll give you this: You either haven't done the content and don't know what you're talking about, you've been blissfully unaware of being carried, or you're maliciously lying.

Also:

this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

You've now said parsers are bad. I will quote this every time you say "But I never said parsers are bad!" Might even stick it in my sig to drive a point home.

I very much know what im talking about, you guys are looking at semantics while leaving out details.

1. No clue what you're talking about because you haven't done it
2. No clue what you're talking about because of unaware carries
3. Malicious liar

Just because you're ignoring the details doesn't mean they aren't there.

Each member has a job to do, a role to play.

Agreed. It's not a DPS' fault when a tank doesn't mitigate a tankbuster, or a healer's fault when DPS stand in everything. It's not the pitcher's fault when the outfielders can't catch a popfly, nor is it the third baseman's fault when the first baseman fumbles with the ball. It's not the people in the box's fault when the person up to bat misses.

A leader still needs to be a leader and communicate. The leader is suppose to organize, communicate, discuss the plan of attack.

Who is the leader of a pug?

If the runs plan goes south, everyone is at fault.

Factually incorrect. I will not stop calling you out on it.

A group is a unit, not separate pieces. Pointing fingers is childish. Even if you didn't kill the group, you just are much responsible for not doing your part in the communication for the run. you was a member of that group, you are part of that group, and should take responsibility. Pointing fingers isn't being a good team member.

"Hey X, I noticed you aren't keeping up straight shot through the fight. It would greatly benefit your damage and help us over the enrage hurdle if you did that."

"Screw off Y, why doesn't everyone else just do more damage? We're all responsible for the damage."

"That's true, but we're all >2000 dps greater than you and maybe you could pick it up."

"No."

"Okay listen I am your leader and you will list--"

"Screw you Y, you aren't leader of dirt. This is a raid finder team."

@ thread

Yes?

everyone here really should stop the vendetta against me as imo i did nothing wrong, but give my opinion on the matter. And say my beliefs.

You put your ideas out into the open marketplace. Don't be surprised when they're rebuffed.

but honestly, i never stated i hate parser, never stated no one should use them

this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

all i stated was you don't need to use a parser to be good.

Nobody argued that point. We don't need healthbars to be good either.

all i stated was everyone in the group is/should be responsible if a run goes south. Mostly because that's the truth. If you don't act like a team, you won't beat content.

You're both right and wrong. You need to act like a team, but part of being a team is being the best member you can possibly be. You're also assuming everybody who runs raids does so in a static: they do not. Raid Finder and Party Finder exist for a reason.

acting like a team does include communication before a run, make sure people know what to do. Know where to stand. Use markers, macros with speech text to impotent skills (raise/voke/ect)

And what do you do when people just do not get it, and do not improve, no matter how hard the group tries?

If you just jump into content expecting a win, you are part of the groups issue if runs go south. You gotta make sure people are on the same page before you start. A leader who doesn't do this is just as much fault, as the person who stood in fire. Who is just as much fault as the healer who refused to raise them out of spite.

Sorry, but no. If you sign on for a farm group, you'd better know all of this without needing more than a few words of greeting. Personal responsibility, Red.

and the smile faces are letting ppl know im not being nasty/angry. That im trying to be pleasant.

Your actions and namecalling toward HyoMin let us know in a far more potent and real way that you're being petty. The smileys do not help, sorry to say. HyoMin, without an emoticon in sight, has been far more pleasant than you.

this post is gonna get cherry picked to hell so, ya not expecting much after this. lol

You're welcome again. Your entire post, dissected and responded to piece by piece. Before I go though...

this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

[akaneakki]

I did endgame in ff11 for 4 years before this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

When? I played this game for years and parser never killed it for me. I was also in one of the best end game linkshells including Blugatr back the time. Please explain.
I also played on ps2 btw weird I never got kicked from my linkshells and did every single end game content...

[MoroMurasaki]

epic post is epic

Is it inappropriate to be the tiniest bit in love with you after this post?

[kikix12]

This have impressively shifted into a discussion about accountability for ones promises, a misguided understanding of the way a mathematically-based mechanics of a game work and plain out psychology opinions over the past two or so dozens of pages...At least, parsers are in the background there, somewhere...

Well...

1) There are many people that thoroughly enjoy their jobs. Largely because they feel satisfaction at the results and/or just cause they ended up being lucky on the coworkers. When you work with people that are just enjoyable to be around, competent at what they do and fair in how they act towards others, the work both passes quickly and is in no way a "chore". Thus, any comparison of raid culture (or any culture for that matter) to job is just irrelevant, as it's not the lone concept of what a "job" is that is a problem for people, but the specific environment of a specific job that they end up at.

2) When the game is deprived of its nice graphics and what not, it is clear that it is just a bunch of calculations done. If X is higher or equal to Y, you win, if it's lower, you lose. X is based on 1A, 2A, 3A and 4A, while Y is fixed. Simple, right?! A "clear" happens when the sum of the parts, as in, the sum of individual peoples damage equals or exceeds the bosses HP. Every person adds their share (fair or not), based on their ability and stats. If a person makes mistake, their numbers decrease as a result. If that number decreases to the point that the Y is not met before the players end up dead for a reason that would not have occurred if that mistake was done, it is that person fault. "Recovering from a mistake" is actually nothing more than salvaging as much of those numbers as possible. It's never a case of reaching what it would be without the mistake being made.
If the sum of losses from a mistake reaches a point that what would be cleared no longer is (enrage, party wipe etc.), then it is the fault of whoever made the mistakes, whether it's one person or all eight.

This is not a void. Performance of an individual is related to performance of others to a lesser or greater degree. If tank dies, the damage done goes down (healers need to revive the tank AND keep DPS alive, at least long enough to not be killed before the tank is resurrected, while the DPS may not have the luxury of worrying about their rotation and instead run with their tails between their legs here or there to lower the damage done to them, like to avoid cone AoE's that they would never be in if the tank would be alive). If the difference between the players gear and skills is not high enough to brute-force the fight, it actually takes only two or three more serious mistakes, even in leveling content let alone savage/extreme/ultimate. If they were all done by a single player...it's that players fault. The numbers are absolute, one cannot suddenly increase their potential just cause another person died. If they could, they would be at that potential to begin with. There is no "party member died, your damage increases by 20%" type of mechanics in this game (at least, not class/job based).


Ultimately, no one still even tried to answer two questions I posted quite early on, to my knowledge.
1) If the people that use ACT manage to remain civil due to the shadow of ban if they act out of place, why would the same shadow of ban stop being effective just because the parser is now official and not third-party?! The reason for the ban never is the parser, it's the action based on it.
2) Was there ever any actual investigation made into the effect of parsers on the playerbase as a whole in any game that officially adopted parsers?! I could not find anything of the sort with a quick search, and I'm confident in there not being such a thing, so I won't do a throughout one.


As I have said at some point, removal of the parser if it turns to crank up the number of harassment incidents is most certainly an option. As such, I entirely agree that a trial run would cause little harm. Ultimately, no matter the result, someone will complain, but without any actual data to go along with it (and Square Enix, let alone players, does NOT have that data), it's just a back-and-forth argument that is hardly going to convince anyone of anything. A trial run would go a long way to getting that data. Basing ones "guesses" only on current amount of harassment incidents is just that...guessing. And I can flip a coin too. I can keep on flipping it until it will come up heads or tails just how I want it. Guesses mean nothing at all.

[HyoMinPark]

@OP—

This is generally what happens when you bring up the discussion of a parser, or of parsing in general. The two sides will always clash. And you will never be able to get a straightforward answer to your question(s) from either so long as one side continues to endlessly debate with the other. I’m always one to welcome friendly debates, and I’m sorry that your original questions have remained unanswered. But such is the way of discussion forums, generally speaking.

I am pro-parser, especially in content where parsing can be an immensely useful tool in terms of progression (Ultimate, Savage, and Ex trials), and I am of the firm belief that implementing a condoned, built-in parser would in no way increase nor decrease the amount of harassment that currently takes place in this game. Like I have repeatedly said in this thread and all other parser threads made on the OF, people are going to be jerks with or without a parser, and people should stop blaming the tool; they should blame the person. A parser will not directly or indirectly affect the way an individual behaves—if they seek to be a twat, then be a twat they shall, whether or not they have a parser at their disposal.

— — —

1. I do believe that, if a parser were to be built into this game as a toggable feature in PF, GMs would still take appropriate actions against any and all reported harassment, especially if there is sufficient in-game proof (via chat log) that harassment/griefing occurred. I doubt that, because a parser would now be considered “legal” in FFXIV, that they would start letting blatant cases of harassment slide. When it comes to people that would outright harass regardless, generally these people don’t really think about, nor care about, the consequences of their actions, so the threat of a ban probably doesn’t even scare them. Hence, why they act as such. Of course, they could also be under a misguided assumption that, because the GMs do not report on the actions they take, that they will get lucky enough to walk away with a slap on the wrist, instead of something more severe. Who really knows. Point of the matter is: even if parsers were officially condoned by SE, the consequences of using them for the sole reason of being a twat are not going to go away. Official parsers =/= a green light on harassment.

(Adding in here that criticism does not necessarily equate to harassment, especially if delivered tactfully and respectfully. Criticism—from yourself and from others—is necessary in improving performance. Constructive criticism is not a bad thing, and I really wish that people would stop perceiving it as such. Sure, if someone said “X, you’re only pulling 2k DPS as a DRG; YOU SUCK. Please uninstall the game”—that is a clear case of griefing/harassment, and the person should be punished. However, saying, “X, I see that you’re only pulling 2k DPS as a DRG. And I’ve noticed you haven’t been keeping up your Heavy Thrust buff, or using Blood of the Dragon. I can give you some advice to improve your rotation and numbers” is not harassment, but constructive criticism/advice. It all boils down to 1. How the criticism/advice is delivered, and 2. For it to not be perceived out of context, or as inherently malicious.)

2. As far as I am aware, there has never been any official types of research on the effects a built-in parser has on the community of an MMO as a whole. Most of the discussion about how a parser changed the playerbase is nothing but accounts of personal experience, which are naturally going to vary between individuals, and are not a very good/quantitative way to analyze the effects of parsers, especially when one side fights so vehemently to paint the parser in the light they deem appropriate; and really, to come up with raw, quantitative data would be quite a bit of a challenge, since most games do not tell people of any actions taken against individuals they report, much like the FFXIV GMs remind people every time they submit an harassment report.

[Vulcwen]

Adding an in-game parser is a green light for using numbers as criticism, which some people perceive as harassment. But getting feedback on your performance is a good thing for high-end content, and I think a built-in parser would fit with the idea of making sure PC and PS4 players have equal opportunities. Additionally, it'll mean more accuracy of your parses, so no skewed community perception of jobs based on errors in DoT estimation.
As long the in-game parser only works if you are solo or in high-end content, and stays out of any casual stuff, I think it's only a positive change. It's better if the game tells you if you're bad than if a player does it.