Built-in Parsers

[Silver-Strider]

Stone, Sea, Sky is the closest we'll probably ever see to a parser in game, even though it completely screws MNK now due to Brotherhood.
I know people in my FC that do parse runs (I'm on PS4 so I can't check myself) but it just feels weird to ask for a parse, just to gauge your own personal performance and while they said I did great for my MNK (3.6-3.7k in V1S in i320 gear at the time) without any context about the number, I was still just as clueless on how to improve short of getting better gear.

[NintenPyjak64]

Even though I lean toward no parsers, your hypothetical question shows one of your party using a parser correctly.

Realistically, this is what most people who advocate for parsers do. Tools like FFlogs only improve by adding overall class rankings and timelines. Let's take my recent log of O3S for example: 80th percentile on WAR as MT. I can easily take this information, look at other WARs who are 81%+ and see what they do differently then I do. Timelines help a ton too as they show exactly when a person uses what ability.

It's because of sites like FFLogs and Warcraftlogs (bless your soul Khira) that I've not only improved myself but other people as well. I'm more then willing to help people down to a fundamental level, but as my old man always says: "You can't help those who don't want to help themselves"

I will not deny the existence of people who use parsers as a weapon, I've been hit by people like that before. I had low DPS on an alt character because my gear was trash, and I was trying to get better gear. But this is what the report function is for. Harrassment, parser or otherwise, should be unacceptable, but in my opinion, the pros outweigh the cons. Even though it may anger a portion of the playerbase, imagine the PS4 playerbase who'd be ecstatic over the implementation

[Risvertasashi]

just to gauge your own personal performance and while they said I did great for my MNK (3.6-3.7k in V1S in i320 gear at the time) without any context about the number, I was still just as clueless on how to improve short of getting better gear.

NintenPyjak64's post covers it pretty well: Assuming they're uploading, find yourself on FFlogs... start looking at what those slightly better than you do different, and see what you can adopt. Repeat as necessary.

Unfortunately FFLogs can be and is used as a shaming weapon as well -- but the facilities it has for self improvement are pretty good. Even if SE finally did cave and add an in game meter, it wouldn't be able to show you timelines, DoT uptime, and so on like FFLogs can.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And lets be real, this thread stopped being productive long before it even existed, since this topic has already been discussed to death, but neither side wants to give a inch

Because like the ever beloved healer DPS, the opposing side lacks a stable argument. You claim parses would make it too easy to blur the lines between "playstyle" and "harassment" yet that doesn't add up.

"What's going on <insert player name>? Your DPS (SAM) is really low."
"Wtf <insert player name>? Fix your shit or I'm kicking you."

Those are two widely different tone. I can and should be reported for the latter, but the former isn't harassment in any way. If said player refuses to improve or admits they don't know their rotation well. I'm not obligated to carry them through content. If you think PF groups don't already kick for poor parses, you haven't pugged Savage. The only difference is they just don't tell you why or they reform the party and invite those they wanted back.

The parse argument basically boils down to "you'll hurt someone's feelings."

[Kacho_Nacho]

Because like the ever beloved healer DPS, the opposing side lacks a stable argument. You claim parses would make it too easy to blur the lines between "playstyle" and "harassment" yet that doesn't add up. "What's going on <insert player name>? Your DPS (SAM) is really low."
"Wtf <insert player name>? Fix your shit or I'm kicking you."

Those are two widely different tone. I can and should be reported for the latter, but the former isn't harassment in any way. If said player refuses to improve or admits they don't know their rotation well. I'm not obligated to carry them through content. If you think PF groups don't already kick for poor parses, you haven't pugged Savage. The only difference is they just don't tell you why or they reform the party and invite those they wanted back.

The parse argument basically boils down to "you'll hurt someone's feelings."

Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

[BigRed5392]

Deliberately my butt. I was talking bout simple everyday tools like hammers, shovels or kitchen cutlery that everyone everywhere use and don't have regulations. Things that aren't super controversial. When I think tools, my mind doesn't automatically go to guns. The word 'tool' can be many many things.

needed tools vs unneeded tools.

no one needs a parser to get better. People choose to use it. Whst do you think old school mmo people did before third party tools became a thing?

I'd like to ask a hypothetical question to the anti-parser people

You're doing O3S, you have a NIN, MNK, RDM and MCH for DPS, and you fail a DPS check 3 times in a row (ignoring tank and healer DPS, let's say it's the White Flame). Somebody you're playing with is running ACT and notices the RDM has considerably lower DPS and higher HPS then usual, and are the only person who has 1 or 2 deaths per attempt. Checking the abilities used shows the RDM is frequently casting Vercure, Jolt 2 (while procs are available) And unenchanted melee attacks.

You and other party members offer advice but it falls on deaf ears. Another failed DPS check and people are starting to get angry

You are the party leader of this team, what would you do? What do you think is fair? Does the RDM's enjoyment of how they play justify the growing frustration of the other party members?

EDIT: The party is a late phase learning party or a weekly kill party. NOT a fresh learning party

my question would be what is the healer doing if a rdm is having to self cure (if that is what your going by) why is the rdm dying? You leave a lot of details out. Remember content is a GROUP thing. Everyone in the GROUP is responsable if things go south.
You left out how advice was given, was it rude and unsolicited? or was it offered to the rdm as a choice?

if you single out 1 person because of a tool (that has a margin of error) of 8 and claiming fault, can cause problems for that 1 person who will get embarrassed and perform worst.

The rdm wouldn't need to heal if the healers were healing. Rdm wouldn't die if the healers were healing.

Why not after 3 wipes you vote abandon and talk to the rdm 1 on 1, see what the issues were. saying "your doing it wrong" is the worst way to tell a person to improve, ask to give them advice/tips. Offer some links to videos if that is how they learn.

no parser needed, just be a good person.

If that isn't good, party up with people you know only.

Like i said how you think mmo players go by before third party tools existed?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

FFXIV's community is really no different except people will just omit the numbers. You also have to keep in mind WoW's numbers dwarf FFXIV by a significant amount. You'll here more complaints just based on sheer volume. Per your example though, pointing out said ilvl difference makes the accuser look dumb unless you're underperforming relatively to your ilvl.

Regardless, I would prefer some actual accountability than the passive aggressiveness and constant vote abandons we see now. Once again, people like those you described will kick or disband without a public parse. They simply won't tell you why. Will some abuse parses and/or be hostile? Yes, so report them. In the long run though, allowing parses helps improve players, especially when you can direct compare rotations, buffs and get a much better understanding why your DPS may be low. Right now, it's a guessing game unless you silently run these programs, which a good number of raiders do.

[Oscura]

Regardless, I would prefer some actual accountability than the passive aggressiveness and constant vote abandons we see now.

This is actually a really solid sentence by itself. I didn't even fully realize how often both of these things happen until you worded it that way.

[NintenPyjak64]

my question would be what is the healer doing if a rdm is having to self cure (if that is what your going by) why is the rdm dying?

Ticks of Briar damage, having the AoE Spellblade Holy and getting clipped by a tank, not breaking vines fast enough, Not running out of the elemental spellblades fast enough. There's a plethora of things can can kill or severely damage you (Especially SB:Blizzard if the healers are even a little late to cure). They could panic and try to cure themselves without waiting for a healer to throw a cure, like how a DPS would use Second Wind but as a GCD ability

You left out how advice was given, was it rude and unsolicited? or was it offered to the rdm as a choice?

Ofc unsolicited, but let's say it's advice about the mechanics of the fight to address why they're dying or taking unnecessary damage. Ofc the entire party is seeing they're doing the mechanics poorly, and just want to advance to the stage the party was created for, giving advice to the person wouldn't make them embarrassed as they're likely ALREADY embarrassed because people noticed they made these mistakes

saying "your doing it wrong" is the worst way to tell a person to improve, ask to give them advice/tips. Offer some links to videos if that is how they learn.

With this I go back to my own post on the matter:

You and other party members offer advice but it falls on deaf ears

How can you know the other person learns from videos if the advice in the first place is falling on deaf ears?

no parser needed, just be a good person.

Since the start of the game I've always sugarcoated advice I've given. I've never given advice in a rude way, yet no matter what, it's ALWAYS interpreted as rude. I've gotten to the point where I just don't offer advice anymore, to the point where I don't care

If that isn't good, party up with people you know only.

I already try to do this to prevent running into players as such (see above response as to why), but there've been times where my static has needed to pug, only to be held back severely because of an outleir. It could be greedy DPS healers (NOT SAYING ALL HEALERS WHO DPS ARE GREEDY, I MEAN WHEN THEY CAST A DPS SPELL WHEN THEY SHOULD BE CASTING A CURE), it could be poor DPS making us fail checks, it could be tanks who can't hold hate on adds, I've seen it all

Like i said how you think mmo players go by before third party tools existed?

Looking at FFXI, Vanilla WoW and Runescape (the only old school MMOs I have knowledge of), simplified damage rotations where a parser ofc wouldn't be needed. Creating max damage now a days is without a doubt way more complicated then it was back then, combat is much MUCH faster paced. Ofc third party tools weren't needed back then, but as rotations became more indepth, tools needed to be created to benefit. Sadly the "toxic" players took the tool and abused it, think hurting somebody with a hammer when it was made for pounding nails into wood.

I'll just say this for the record: I hate kicking people. It always makes me feel like shit after, but the biggest "redemption" I feel from it is that I'm benefiting the 6 other people. I'll care more about the team as a whole then a person individually. My static is made almost entirely of friends, people I know who won't get angry when I tell them they suck (joking or not). But I'll actively help them knowing that they could use the advice and will be receptive of it. I even go the extra mile and suffer with them at training dummies or dungeons, and they'll do the same for me if I'm learning a new class

[DaulBan]

If I ask why someone doesn't mitigate in a dungeon because I never see them using any CDs every once in a while someone complains that I'm an elitist or that I don't want to have fun and that they don't play this game to raid. I guess based on some of the content in this thread they should remove buff indicators so that I, scoundrel and harassing healer that I am, can't harass the tank for not popping Rampart once in his goddamn life.