Tanks and super pulls

[wereotter]

I agree with you, but IMO the dangerous one is pulling something like 4 Urolith + 3 Phoebad + 3 Dhara sentinels in the middle of Drowned Skalla - I've seen dps die way more often because average melee pugs dps cant avoid constant aoe barrages where the indicators are masked in between 3525 attack animations (disabling animation make it easier, but most people don't do that, I guess).

This is the pull I was thinking of earlier when I mentioned that, as a ninja, I feel like I just have to stand back and watch the caster do all the killing. If I try to get in the middle of all that, there's a good chance I end up dead, or at the very least I don't want to add extra stress on the healer to have to keep me alive on top of the tank to decided to pick up that many enemies.

[winsock]

I find it funny that you have to "guess" to do your job.

Maybe you should do something about that.

Try communicating.

-Neph

LOL, do tell how this theoretical conversation would go that would land the party at an optimal and ideal pull size, without anyone making assumptions about anyone else's skill level.

[NephthysVasudan]

LOL, do tell how this theoretical conversation would go that would land the party at an optimal and ideal pull size, without anyone making assumptions about anyone else's skill level.

Its called typing on your keyboard....and saying "Hai - <insert query here> "

doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

The fact i have to explain this to you...is very disconcerting.

-Neph

[winsock]

Its called typing on your keyboard....and saying "Hai - <insert query here> "

doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

The fact i have to explain this to you...is very disconcerting.

-Neph

What is the query? You're dodging the question. I don't think you realize how ineffective your proposed strategy is (or do realize this so you are avoiding the question and talking down to me lol). What question(s) can you ask that would remove assumptions and guesswork, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?

[NephthysVasudan]

What is the query? You're dodging the question. I don't think you realize how ineffective your proposed strategy is (or do realize this so you are avoiding the question and talking down to me lol). What question(s) can you ask that would remove assumptions and guesswork, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?

Learn to read before you speak.

If you don't bother to stop and ask what you want to do for a strat in the dungeon...your setting yourself up for a random failure incident...which happens more often than not.
Hence...learn to communicate or please...get out of the way and stay out of the way. These are basics for crying out loud...how can you not understand this?! need I spell it out for you?

-Neph

[winsock]

Learn to read before you speak.

If you don't bother to stop and ask what you want to do for a strat in the dungeon...your setting yourself up for a random failure incident...which happens more often than not.
Hence...learn to communicate or please...get out of the way and stay out of the way. These are basics for crying out loud...how can you not understand this?! need I spell it out for you?

-Neph

You keep preaching communication and reading, etc. but you continue to leave this question unanswered and are being very rude.

For the 3rd time:
What question(s) can you ask that would remove assumptions and guesswork, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?


See how effective asking for something is? this is the 3rd time i've asked and you, the self-proclaimed proponent of communication, continue to not answer the direct question plus continue to speak down to me. You are only proving my point that your strategy is ineffective. By all means, spell it out for me.

To be clearer, here is a scenario:
You've queue for expert roulette as tank. You land in Ala Mhigo.
What question(s) do you type to your healer/party that would remove assumptions and guesswork about skill levels, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

The fact you keep asking means you don't have a clue.

I'm not going to waste my time on that.

You already know since you "assume/guesstimate" so well.

-Neph

[winsock]

The fact you keep asking means you don't have a clue.

I'm not going to waste my time on that.

You already know since you "assume/guesstimate" so well.

-Neph

Lol avoiding it again are you? Can't back up your own arguments lol?
If this were a dungeon run, we still wouldnt have started and you would have added toxicity to the group with your rudeness.
Could it be that your ideas seem good on paper, but are worthless in practice? And that your avoidance is firmly rooted in inexperience lol?

== EDIT ==
I thought I'd write an explanation of why it is a bad idea to use Nephthys' strategy so that this argument isnt a complete waste of time for someone who stumbles onto it. For context, my strategy is to assume a healer is at least capable of HPS of approximately cure II spam, making a pull based on that assumption, using that pull to estimate the healer/party's skill level, then adjusting my pull size accordingly. Nephthys was critical of this, stating that i shouldnt assume anything about my healer's skill level, and that i should communicate with my healer/party to avoid making assumptions... but then refused on multiple occasions to give any examples of the questions I should ask to avoid making these assumptions...

Here is why Nephthys' strategy is bad:
On paper, it might seem like a good idea to ask something like: "how large should i pull?" or "what is your preferred pull size?". However, this doesnt remove assumptions about skill levels. All it does is pin the responsibility of making those assumptions on the healer. For example, if a tank asks a healer "how large should i pull?" and the healer responds "wall-to-wall", the healer assumes the tank is capable of using their cooldowns appropriately and maintain aggro during+after the pull. The tank is in a much better position to be determining an initial pull size because they need to make fewer assumptions than a healer would.

If you are a healer, beware of tanks that ask you how large they should pull! If you respond "wall-to-wall", what you will likely get is a tank that pulls to the wall, doesnt use cooldowns, may or may not hold aggro, and blames you for the wipe: "I thought you said you could heal wall-to-wall". If a tank asks you how large they should pull and you feel yourself wanting to say anything other than "1 group at a time", stop yourself, and answer with something like: "whatever you feel comfortable with".

As a tank, a much better tactic in a PUG is making an initial test pull, while assuming the healer is a little below average (in other words, making a pull that nearly all healers will be able to handle). On many dungeons, this won't even impact your runtime. For example, my initial pull in the current Expert Roulette roster is to the wall. Since this launch of stormblood, i have never encountered a healer unable to handle these sections. I've had maybe a handful instances where self heals were needed, but all and all: 0 wipes. Once you've seen the party in action in the initial pull, you can use the information gained from the test pull to make better decisions about pulls size later in the dungeon.

[Okamimaru]

It's simple...

Tank to healer: what's a good pull size for you?
Healer: if you use cooldowns, and hold agro pull X amount.

At this point the tank should be aware of party composition (can dps aoe while maintaining enough tp/mp to clear the pull?)... remember casters can't goad melee and vice versa....

Not rocket science

[winsock]

It's simple...

Tank to healer: what's a good pull size for you?
Healer: if you use cooldowns, and hold agro pull X amount.

At this point the tank should be aware of party composition (can dps aoe while maintaining enough tp/mp to clear the pull?)... remember casters can't goad melee and vice versa....

Not rocket science

Look at your example backwards for a second and i think it will make more sense:
WHM to Tank: what's a good pull size for you?
Tank: Do you use cure II? If so, to the wall.

We can make the above example more concise right? The healer doesnt need to know the pull size in advance, so we can eliminate the healer's question and the tank's response, leaving us with:
Tank: Do you use cure II?

Should I really ask a WHM if they use cure II?
IMO, no. I can tell you first hand that if you dont ask this question in expert roulette and lead with a pull to the wall, everything should be fine for several months (and counting)