Tanks and super pulls

[NephthysVasudan]

Perhaps, but the sad fact is - content is not going to get any easier than 4-man dungeons. I mean, I personally try to be considerate and usually stick to double pulls in DF, I only do super pulls when I either bring the dps or healer (or the group asks, which is rare). But if a random healer or dps (or tank for that matter) can't even handle double-pulls, quite frankly they need to just uninstall. Easiest content in the game, maybe outside of guildhests lol. And I don't consider myself to have an elitist attitude or anything, it's just the facts.

You're making these statements and yet I think you made the assumption that your definition of a double pull versus what we are talking about are entirely different.


My definition of a "super pull" (negative context) is when they decide to stack mobs thick that happen to have very dangerous AOE's or multiple AOE's that stack DPS too high for anyone caught in the middle of the mess.

Each dungeon is different - Violet Tides ( of which I refer to as the Ruby Palace) has one section where one giant turtle sits there and the guy pulls the turtle up the stairs - I think this is bad because if one..just one guy gets stuck in the AOE in the middle of that brawl - instant KO....regardless of your stats.

This is just one example of stupidity I've seen. Granted I've seen many runs where people manage to get past it fine - but these are strangers..not people I know and trust.

And telling people to uninstall because of wanting to play it safe? Will cost you dearly - Mentality wise.

-Npeh

[bswpayton]

You're making these

-Npeh

are u really talkin about a four add pull , the thing has a cast bar think th emoves called flush just dont stand in it no reason to not pull him

[ElonMuskForPrez]

My definition of a "super pull" (negative context) is when they decide to stack mobs thick that happen to have very dangerous AOE's or multiple AOE's that stack DPS too high for anyone caught in the middle of the mess.

Each dungeon is different - Violet Tides ( of which I refer to as the Ruby Palace) has one section where one giant turtle sits there and the guy pulls the turtle up the stairs - I think this is bad because if one..just one guy gets stuck in the AOE in the middle of that brawl - instant KO....regardless of your stats.
-Npeh

I agree with you, but IMO the dangerous one is pulling something like 4 Urolith + 3 Phoebad + 3 Dhara sentinels in the middle of Drowned Skalla - I've seen dps die way more often because average melee pugs dps cant avoid constant aoe barrages where the indicators are masked in between 3525 attack animations (disabling animation make it easier, but most people don't do that, I guess).

But that turtle flush ... is something they should be able to dodge in their sleep lol. I mean that turtle flush AoE is bigger than usual but it's slow casting thus it's really easy to dodge, unless people are watching netflix or have wooden PC/internet. I don't think I've ever seen anyone get hit ever/never noticed it as an issue the whole time I tanked/healed/dps that dungeon. Did this happen to your group often?

[whiskeybravo]

You're making these statements and yet I think you made the assumption that your definition of a double pull versus what we are talking about are entirely different.

My definition of a "super pull" (negative context) is when they decide to stack mobs thick that happen to have very dangerous AOE's or multiple AOE's that stack DPS too high for anyone caught in the middle of the mess.

Again, it only takes basic awareness to dodge aoes. I would refer to super pulls as being larger than 2 pulls, of which there are only a few in total (1 or less per dungeon). So it's kind of silly to even argue that "super pulls" are some great detriment to the game, they hardly exist since SE dropped the hammer on "speedrunning" back in ARR.

Aside from that, I was running with the OP's definition of "super tank is it is a tank who pulls more than one mob". Technically this includes double pulls as well. There's a big difference between playing it safe and pulling one mob at a time. My idea of "playing it safe" is simply staying in Defiance for super pulls. So obviously it's a subjective concept.

[winsock]

Its called typing on your keyboard....and saying "Hai - <insert query here> "

doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

The fact i have to explain this to you...is very disconcerting.

-Neph

What is the query? You're dodging the question. I don't think you realize how ineffective your proposed strategy is (or do realize this so you are avoiding the question and talking down to me lol). What question(s) can you ask that would remove assumptions and guesswork, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?

[NephthysVasudan]

What is the query? You're dodging the question. I don't think you realize how ineffective your proposed strategy is (or do realize this so you are avoiding the question and talking down to me lol). What question(s) can you ask that would remove assumptions and guesswork, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?

Learn to read before you speak.

If you don't bother to stop and ask what you want to do for a strat in the dungeon...your setting yourself up for a random failure incident...which happens more often than not.
Hence...learn to communicate or please...get out of the way and stay out of the way. These are basics for crying out loud...how can you not understand this?! need I spell it out for you?

-Neph

[winsock]

Learn to read before you speak.

If you don't bother to stop and ask what you want to do for a strat in the dungeon...your setting yourself up for a random failure incident...which happens more often than not.
Hence...learn to communicate or please...get out of the way and stay out of the way. These are basics for crying out loud...how can you not understand this?! need I spell it out for you?

-Neph

You keep preaching communication and reading, etc. but you continue to leave this question unanswered and are being very rude.

For the 3rd time:
What question(s) can you ask that would remove assumptions and guesswork, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?


See how effective asking for something is? this is the 3rd time i've asked and you, the self-proclaimed proponent of communication, continue to not answer the direct question plus continue to speak down to me. You are only proving my point that your strategy is ineffective. By all means, spell it out for me.

To be clearer, here is a scenario:
You've queue for expert roulette as tank. You land in Ala Mhigo.
What question(s) do you type to your healer/party that would remove assumptions and guesswork about skill levels, plus land you on an optimal/ideal pull size?

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

The fact you keep asking means you don't have a clue.

I'm not going to waste my time on that.

You already know since you "assume/guesstimate" so well.

-Neph

[winsock]

The fact you keep asking means you don't have a clue.

I'm not going to waste my time on that.

You already know since you "assume/guesstimate" so well.

-Neph

Lol avoiding it again are you? Can't back up your own arguments lol?
If this were a dungeon run, we still wouldnt have started and you would have added toxicity to the group with your rudeness.
Could it be that your ideas seem good on paper, but are worthless in practice? And that your avoidance is firmly rooted in inexperience lol?

== EDIT ==
I thought I'd write an explanation of why it is a bad idea to use Nephthys' strategy so that this argument isnt a complete waste of time for someone who stumbles onto it. For context, my strategy is to assume a healer is at least capable of HPS of approximately cure II spam, making a pull based on that assumption, using that pull to estimate the healer/party's skill level, then adjusting my pull size accordingly. Nephthys was critical of this, stating that i shouldnt assume anything about my healer's skill level, and that i should communicate with my healer/party to avoid making assumptions... but then refused on multiple occasions to give any examples of the questions I should ask to avoid making these assumptions...

Here is why Nephthys' strategy is bad:
On paper, it might seem like a good idea to ask something like: "how large should i pull?" or "what is your preferred pull size?". However, this doesnt remove assumptions about skill levels. All it does is pin the responsibility of making those assumptions on the healer. For example, if a tank asks a healer "how large should i pull?" and the healer responds "wall-to-wall", the healer assumes the tank is capable of using their cooldowns appropriately and maintain aggro during+after the pull. The tank is in a much better position to be determining an initial pull size because they need to make fewer assumptions than a healer would.

If you are a healer, beware of tanks that ask you how large they should pull! If you respond "wall-to-wall", what you will likely get is a tank that pulls to the wall, doesnt use cooldowns, may or may not hold aggro, and blames you for the wipe: "I thought you said you could heal wall-to-wall". If a tank asks you how large they should pull and you feel yourself wanting to say anything other than "1 group at a time", stop yourself, and answer with something like: "whatever you feel comfortable with".

As a tank, a much better tactic in a PUG is making an initial test pull, while assuming the healer is a little below average (in other words, making a pull that nearly all healers will be able to handle). On many dungeons, this won't even impact your runtime. For example, my initial pull in the current Expert Roulette roster is to the wall. Since this launch of stormblood, i have never encountered a healer unable to handle these sections. I've had maybe a handful instances where self heals were needed, but all and all: 0 wipes. Once you've seen the party in action in the initial pull, you can use the information gained from the test pull to make better decisions about pulls size later in the dungeon.

[Okamimaru]

It's simple...

Tank to healer: what's a good pull size for you?
Healer: if you use cooldowns, and hold agro pull X amount.

At this point the tank should be aware of party composition (can dps aoe while maintaining enough tp/mp to clear the pull?)... remember casters can't goad melee and vice versa....

Not rocket science