Tanks Letting DPS Die

[silverlunarfox]

now this is how a tank should think and act like - take it as a challenge but don't cry for no reason <3

My friends are a blm and brd that i usually run with and the whole time they try to out do each other on aggro, so.....needless to say crying isn't something I do anymore. XP they burned it out of me.

[Lollie]

Personal oppinion
Attack on tanks: I run xdr mainly on drg. If I pull hate off you mid trash pull, and I am not talking just 1 mob here I mean a significant portion of the pack for a significant portion of the killing phase. I will tank them for you with bb, I will probably live if the healer is decent, and I will boot you or I will leave, if it happens more than once.

Attack on casters: Baring maybe rdm, havent played it yet. Every burst aoe you have has depreciating dmg, if you pull a single target from a pack, no you are not good, you are ignorant to the fact you can lower you enimity generated and even your applied dmg out simply by switching targets. You don't even have to waste your time finding the one you have the lowest hate on just target cycle to something else near the middle. Tank aoes have no depreciation based on target count

Ranged physical: good luck with those front loaded aoe cycles, I got nothing really and I feel for ya.

Fun fact: It is completely possible clear every dungeon in the game without a tank under 24 minutes (mainly due to reduced ability to survive larger pulls). The issue is not incoming damage, the issue is the healer being able to predict where the incoming damage is going. The average time to clear a dungeon with a tank is 15-20 minutes. The average time it takes to get a replacement for a booted tank on personal recording 6-8 minutes. Its is faster, and at worst even time, for me to boot you if you don't hold hate.

[Sawamura]

I don´t really sure why people has trouble tank and dps enmity. I mean tank grab off enmity from dps/healer is really easy. For trash mob pull dps and tank is easy to change to target with lowest enmity.
As a tank should be happy with dps and healer can do the job.
As a DPS should be happy with a tank and healer can do the job.
As a healer should be happy with tank and dps can do the job.

However I really hope I can party with some good tank and dps whenever I do dungeon.... I have party with too many bad dps and tank and healer.....
If I see a really bad or beginner I usually tell them to read more guide at end of dungeon.

[Okamimaru]

As a dps main the only time I die and it's not my fault is others ignoring mechanics, bad tank position, or not getting healed in time... if I rip aggro it's my bad... I will tank it myself if I need to... that being said when I tank I always play it safe and focus on holding agro over dps... you steal agro I'll try and get it back.. just don't make me chase you to do it

[EaMett]

this is just your personal opinion.

It's not my opinion. It's a well established responsibility distribution that's been inherent to role based mmos for over a decade now. Which was thoroughly backed up in this thread, with examples and counter examples. You (and others) strolling in saying it's "an opinion" without backing it up beyond saying "tanks have aggro building tools so it's their responsibility" does not make it so. No matter how easy it is for tanks to build aggro. You are still the ONLY (I can't stress this enough omg) person with control over YOUR enmity. If not having you there gets rid of the problem, YOU are the problem. If your tank sucks and you can't dps that's on him.
Someone earlier asked for an example of when it was actually the tank's fault and we're still waiting.

There are many flavors of mmos out there. I can't claim to having played them all but I've been around. Role responsibilities has been the one constant throughout. Some mmos make it hard on tanks to build proper enmity and DPS are always capped and stopping their dps to not grab aggro because doing so results in a swift death. When that's the case a good tank is one that could play with good dps and not cap them. Hell there are mmos where tanks don't even have enmity building skills so dps have to wait for buildup before starting. There are even mmos without raises so dps have to be extra careful.
It's always been the DPS' responsibility to keep their aggro in check and FF14 is no exception. The fact that tanks can make enmity rain, coupled with the fact that grabbing aggro is low consequence does NOT change these responsibilities. It merely allows you to be a sloppy player.

If you're in a raid with a slow building enmity tank there are several outcomes when you're about to grab aggro:
- You stop dpsing because you're out of enmity dumping skills. Your dps is bellow what it could be but you still manage to clear the boss before the enrage. You did YOUR job properly, made up for your high enmity (or the tank's low enmity) by stopping your dps and cleared the content. Success.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss cleaves the raid, or is missplaced for a mechanic etc.. it's a wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, if you had played your class properly you guys would have succeeded as per the above.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss kills you, screws up positionals for other players, etc. You hit enrage and wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, again if you had played properly you would've cleared.
- You stop DPSing, never grab aggro. The boss hits enrage and you wipe. It's the TANK'S FAULT. He's not generating enough enmity and is capping the group DPS which is keeping you from passing the enrage mechanic.
- And for full disclosure > You continue dpsing, grab aggro and the tank manages to pull back. In which case you may down the boss thanks to the cover provided by the tank and the healers (perhaps shielding and healing through a buster that required the provoke CD for example). They need to put that extra effort in because of YOU. They're covering YOUR mistake.

This applies to every encounter be it raid, boss, trash, etc... it's just that ff14 is very casual oriented and allows players to be sloppy, luring dps into thinking "well if the tank can't hold aggro he's not playing right so it's his fault". This is fallacious at best. Your enmity, your responsibility.

PS: And just to be clear. Tank in the wrong stance, tank AFKing mid pull, etc.. all douche moves from the tank but still your fault for grabbing aggro (though it may be warranted as your healer doesn't have infinite mana, but in that case you're putting the group survival first which is normal). You have 1 job as a dps. Doing as much damage as you can while not getting aggro. You have a built in enemy list and single target aggro list, use them.

[Sawamura]

If you're in a raid with a slow building enmity tank there are several outcomes when you're about to grab aggro:
- You stop dpsing because you're out of enmity dumping skills. Your dps is bellow what it could be but you still manage to clear the boss before the enrage. You did YOUR job properly, made up for your high enmity (or the tank's low enmity) by stopping your dps and cleared the content. Success.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss cleaves the raid, or is missplaced for a mechanic etc.. it's a wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, if you had played your class properly you guys would have succeeded as per the above.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss kills you, screws up positionals for other players, etc. You hit enrage and wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, again if you had played properly you would've cleared.
- You stop DPSing, never grab aggro. The boss hits enrage and you wipe. It's the TANK'S FAULT. He's not generating enough enmity and is capping the group DPS which is keeping you from passing the enrage mechanic.
- And for full disclosure > You continue dpsing, grab aggro and the tank manages to pull back. In which case you may down the boss thanks to the cover provided by the tank and the healers (perhaps shielding and healing through a buster that required the provoke CD for example). They need to put that extra effort in because of YOU. They're covering YOUR mistake.

If tank like this in savage raid is a wipe and disband GG...... This is tank MT and OT management enmity wrong..... There is just simple no way tank will lose enmity against DPS using correct reduce enmity ability in FFXIV world.Is good tank try to do the best with add more dps to help clear raid content. However if tank putting selfpersonal dps >> holding aggro for dps is complete tank fault in all of mmorpg... Tank job is holding mob as long as possible until all mob die. While dps doing the best dps and not over take aggro from tank.

[Chronons]

If you pull aggro on a tank, you:
- did single target during an aoe encounter (your fault)
- pulled mobs tank hasn't attacked yet on your own (your fault)
- used every cooldown at your disposal and dps'd like a mofo while the tank was corralling a weird pull (your fault)
- didn't watch the emnity list to see that you were approaching # 1 (your fault)
- knew you were going to pull aggro and did it anyway (your fault)
- annoyed the tank somehow (probably your fault)

All I see is people saying they should have awesome tanks who let them do all the dps they want to. Tough nuts. Tanks have to deal with netflix healers and braindead dps, you can watch your emnity when you dont get lucky and get someones raid static MT.

Regarding tanks not leaving dps stance to hold aggro; This is only a bad thing if the dps lost by the healer having to heal is greater than that being provided by the tank remaining in dps stance. As long as you dont die, its not a dps loss for the dps player to take damage (it is a loss only if the healer has to heal them to prevent death).

People seem to forget its not the healers job to keep you at full hp, its not the tanks job to make sure you never have aggro - its their job to keep you alive. There are three kinds of dps losses: death, tank stance, and healing. Optimal play means avoiding them all.

[EaMett]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again.

That is correct. I find it a little strange that this is so hard to swallow even though it's been like this for ages.
Don't get me wrong though. We aren't alleviating the fact that your tank is clearly doing things wrong. His job is to dps as much as possible while making sure he doesn't cap your dps. If you have to stop DPSing or screw your rotation up because of enmity he's clearly performing under your standards.
Because FF14 is very generous with tank enmity it's a pretty good sign that your tank is doing something wrong (but not always, maybe he's poorly geared, or at a level where he doesn't have a tank stance yet... etc.).
It is, however, still your responsibility not to take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, and doing so has negative consequences on the group culminating with you potentially dying and your dps going to waste. But even if it doesn't get to that it's still unfavorable for the group.

This is also us building a case for role responsibilities and not necessarily how they play out. In practice if you're playing with a greedy dps tank who doesn't build enmity. If you pull aggro off of him a few times, the tank will often get the message that they're capping your dps and should build more aggro. The consequences for you and the rest of the group are generally manageable (though not always).
We're just saying that pulling aggro is always a mismanagement of enmity on the DPS end.

[Llus]

now this is how a tank should think and act like - take it as a challenge but don't cry for no reason <3

/ac shirk <noob dps>
dead dps - 0 aggro, problem solved

[EaMett]

[...] However if tank putting selfpersonal dps >> holding aggro for dps is complete tank fault in all of mmorpg... Tank job is holding mob as long as possible until all mob die. While dps doing the best dps and not over take aggro from tank.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

But because I feel this was intended as a rebuttal: It's just that you're equating tank holding aggro with dps not pulling aggro. Which is incorrect.