Tanks Letting DPS Die

[Neela]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.

thats just bullshit... I always wonder since when dds are in charge of tanks enmity. all this bullshit who's responsible for enmity and dps increased in the end of HW where every healer and every tank was just seeking for more and more personal dps. the general rule is the following: tanks should tank, healer should heal. tank/healer dps is just a fucking bonus if you do your job correct. and most tanks nowadays are just bad... I never had so much enmity problems in hw as absolut aoe king cls with my old deathflare and bane but I got more and more trouble in sb with nerfed aoe skills - and not cause smns are that op but cause of the mindchange on most of the random tanks I met = running in dps stance...

Pulling in DPS stance = not doing everything in his power to keep enmity, so If I did (lucid + diversion) sorry but it's on him. I have a job to do and a rotation to maintain, the jobs are designed to be ok if things are done correctly. He wanna go permanent DPS stance ? Fine by me, might he be well stuffed and/or well skilled, otherwise refrain.

this. if you are able to play like that do it - if you are not able just don't. simple like that. but don't blame the dds if you can't hold aggro as a maintank - excuses like we should use div/luc for every pull is just embarrassing for all other tanks around.

[Capn_Goggles]

[...] Still, a DPS taking aggro off a tank is the DPS' fault. [...]

That's painting a wide variety of possible situations with a very broad stroke, which is pretty silly since there's a few situations where it's totally out of their hands.

Anyway, as I've mentioned earlier, Monk and Samurai have lackluster enmity management, however I'm not particularly bothered by this because the DPS I lose for having to push harder on enmity is most likely made up by their high personal DPS; for the rest of my point, please consider this scenario to be the exception so I don't have to keep calling back to it as such.

A tank's primary objective is to establish enmity, which ensures the enemy targets them rather than the less defensive members of the party. Once enmity established, their objective shifts to maximizing their damage output while minimizing damage taken. If everyone uses their management tools, the tank will rarely have to (if ever) go back into tank stance in order to maintain aggro after it has been established. The problem comes when party members refuse to use these abilities, either because they're ignorant of how important it is to do so or because they do not believe the responsibility falls on their shoulders. Ultimately, if the tank loses aggro they're responsible for getting it back, however unless they did a particularly poor job of establishing enmity (which can be as simple as 2 overpowers and popping equilibrium before swapping to DPS stance as warrior) then the fault lies solely on the person who ripped it in the first place.

Please be aware that I do not endorse a petty idea like "you aggro it, you tank it", because people make mistakes; and let's be real, most content isn't hard enough to justify that level of punishment. However, I also dislike the idea that a role isn't responsible for anything but their namesake, because if this were the case then nearly every job would look radically different from their current iterations.

[Llus]

That's painting a wide variety of possible situations with a very broad stroke, which is pretty silly since there's a few situations where it's totally out of their hands.

Name one please

[EaMett]

thats just bullshit... I always wonder since when dds are in charge of tanks enmity.

They're in charge of THEIR enmity. I wonder how much of the exchange you've actually read because you're basically going over all the same stuff.
We get it. If your tank sucks it's hard not to pull aggro from them. And, sure, it's frustrating to take the blame for pulling aggro because the tank is selfishly dpsing or whatever. Still your damn fault if you take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, you're the ONLY one who has control of it. Get over it. Just tell your tank you're sorry for pulling aggro and then ask him to build more enmity because he's effectively capping your dps. If he doesn't want to, he's a douche.

There's is only one case where grabbing aggro from a tank is the tank's fault and I addressed that in my initial post.

[Capn_Goggles]

Name one please

It's a mob that explicitly aggroes on a specific random person, the tank doesn't properly establish enmity, they have to resort to single target because SOMEBODY *cough* didn't goad them, etc.

[magnanimousCynic]

because SOMEBODY *cough* didn't goad them, etc.

The tank shouldn't do a pull at such low TP if they can't maintain aggro.

[Llus]

It's a mob that explicitly aggroes on a specific random person, the tank doesn't properly establish enmity, they have to resort to single target because SOMEBODY *cough* didn't goad them, etc.

If a mob doesn't have an aggro table, has a first hit aggro table or aggro table swap (or other mechanic) it's a mechanic, DPS didn't pull hate the mechanic happened as intended. IDK what goad would have to do with it unless you're talking about an overpower spammer tank that emptied their TP and didn't have enough for a mob spawn. Still if the DPS pulled hate, they generated enmity early not the tank so tank still isn't responsible for DPS enmity. Tank should manage their TP better, ask for a goad or tactician, tank would have failed in properly managing their resources and DPS would have failed by hitting an enemy before the tank could gain threat (and some would argue not giving a goad or tactician to the shitter overpower spammer).

[ChloeGrace]

If a DPS pulls hate from me (rare, but it does happen when one unloads on a single target when they should be using aoe), and they insist on wailing on it while kiting it around like a valkurm black mage even after I provoke and shield lob, then they can have it AFAIC. I'm not above letting it eat their face.
If a DPS runs toward me and shifts targets, I'll gladly pull it off them.

[Kabooa]

The tank shouldn't do a pull at such low TP if they can't maintain aggro.

No, see, it's only the DPS who shouldn't be using actions.

[Arrius]

Name one please

Coincounter, the second Boss in Aurum Vale, resets the emnity table halfway through the fight all of the sudden.

And I am pretty sure there are another one or two who do the same, though this one I only managed to recall off the bat since I ran it recently.