Tanks Letting DPS Die

[JockHarley]

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps? even if they are using their enmity reducing procs, it's still dps because they should hold back.
If that's it, I respect your view, if you feel the need to know where I stand on that, well I do not personally agree.

If you further want to read forward hear on what I have to say as input, I think a tank maintaining aggro is better than one that has high dps with mobs flying round the instanced zone. If you can maintain aggro, and stance dance well enough you know when to swap back and re-establish the aggro, you are a tank I will always pair with if given the choice.

[EaMett]

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps? even if they are using their enmity reducing procs, it's still dps because they should hold back.

Yes, although admittedly easier said than done sometimes. It is however your fault as a tank that the dps is capped and you should fix that by building more enmity. A DPS holding back = tank's failure.

I think a tank maintaining aggro is better than one that has high dps with mobs flying round the instanced zone. If you can maintain aggro, and stance dance well enough you know when to swap back and re-establish the aggro, you are a tank I will always pair with if given the choice.

We totally agree on this. And this statement is not exclusive of my earlier assessment. A tank in dps stance and/or dps rotation instead of the bit of effort it takes to build more enmity is not (or very rarely) a dps gain compared to a dps role having to sit on a couple GCDs because they're about to pull aggro.

[JockHarley]

Yes, although admittedly easier said than done sometimes. It is however your fault as a tank that the dps is capped and you should fix that by building more enmity. A DPS holding back = tank's failure.



We totally agree on this. And this statement is not exclusive of my earlier assessment. A tank in dps stance and/or dps rotation instead of the bit of effort it takes to build more enmity is not (or very rarely) a dps gain compared to a dps role having to sit on a couple GCDs because they're about to pull aggro.

ahhhh I'm totally with you now, thank you for re-clarifying that with me

[Wintersandman]

Correction : the responsibility of the dps is to dps while managing their enmity (aka: not grabbing aggro). Enmity tools are just one way they can do this. Other options include not dpsing, switching targets, handling a mechanic for another player etc.

Sorry but there is no correcting what I am saying. If the tank does his job properly. DPS should never have to stop dps'ing just to manage their threat. The job of the tank is to maintain control of whatever enemy is in front of him.

So here is a question for you. This morning in Halatali HM I saw a Tank who would let enemies go attack the healer as he never tagged them. Should I do one of the following:
A. Stay focus target on the tanks target
B. Attack loose target because the healer is dying

Based on your statements I should do A. Because if I choose B I am at fault for grabbing aggro.

[Hruodig]

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps? even if they are using their enmity reducing procs, it's still dps because they should hold back.
If that's it, I respect your view, if you feel the need to know where I stand on that, well I do not personally agree.

If you further want to read forward hear on what I have to say as input, I think a tank maintaining aggro is better than one that has high dps with mobs flying round the instanced zone. If you can maintain aggro, and stance dance well enough you know when to swap back and re-establish the aggro, you are a tank I will always pair with if given the choice.

I don't expect my dps to hold back gcds, ever. Though I do expect them to use aggro tools to help me do dps as well, it's a group effort. I'll never switch back into tank stance (what a waste of potency), but I will do an aggro combo if I absolutely have to. Usually if it's a dungeon though, the boss is more or less dead by the time I have to think about that.

[Gravton]

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps?

As soon as I read this I thought, "Why did only one break away?" Are you using a single target rotation while everyone else is aoe-ing?

[EaMett]

If the tank does his job properly. DPS should never have to stop dps'ing just to manage their threat.

We agree on this. The tank's job is to do as much dps while not capping the DPS. Still, a DPS taking aggro off a tank is the DPS' fault. After everything that's been said I don't know what more to add. If you want a pat on the back for taking aggro off your tank (regardless of how bad he is), you aren't getting it from me. That's quite clear.

Also this is completely unrelated to instances where a DPS should grab aggro. I'm only talking about enmity mismanagement.
There are plenty of instances where grabbing aggro is not a mismanagement of enmity. Whether it be a boss or mob that needs to be tanked by a dps, or mobs that need to be kited by dps, or if your tank dies. etc.. etc..

The example you give fits in that. You're -intentionally- taking aggro for a high priority reason (survival of group, which really trumps all else). As an aside, grabbing aggro isn't the only option. The healer or someone else could cc as well.
Anyways, I already addressed the healer edge case.

[JockHarley]

As soon as I read this I thought, "Why did only one break away?" Are you using a single target rotation while everyone else is aoe-ing?

I only ever do solo targeting in mob pulls when my ogcd move is ready to proc (rdm), and will be to the mob the tank is attacking to minimize potential aggro loss as well. Otherwise all I see is red from my AOE. yes, I do also proc diversion and lucid where I can plly to both be useful in pulls and also to keep my dps

[JockHarley]

I don't expect my dps to hold back gcds, ever. Though I do expect them to use aggro tools to help me do dps as well, it's a group effort. I'll never switch back into tank stance (what a waste of potency), but I will do an aggro combo if I absolutely have to. Usually if it's a dungeon though, the boss is more or less dead by the time I have to think about that.

see, with you monitoring the aggro though and being aware that you might need to swipe up an aggro combo whilst in the tanking stance, that makes you a team player as you are still keeping in mind you may lose aggro.

[Venoshock]

Not, it's not really subjective because here everyone is barely knowing what is AOE, ST, and enmity management.

But everytime I cross a player doing thoses errors, and tell him, it's never his fault by his opinion.

That's where the subjectivity lies : Knowing if you did wrong anytime

And that's something you will rarely see in players you cross dungeon with.

what other players think is subjective or not is irrelavant when it comes to how this game is played.

Single target attacking in a large pull is demonstrably far less efficient than using AOE attacks because not only does it take much longer to kill the group of adds, it also puts stress on the tanks and healers as cooldowns are a thing. This is a fact. Their opinion, is irrelevant. If a DPS argues or flat out ignores you after bringing this to their attention, don't even say anything more, just kick them out.

As for enmit management, if your DPS is using their enmity modifiers and the tank still loses aggro for what ever reason. It's objectively the tnks fault.The DPS did their jobs, the tank obviously isn't. Again, personal opinion is irrelevant, because this is how it works in XIV.