WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[MyaValentine]

I think SE has done a very good job on tanks so far in SB. It's not perfect, drk could benefit from a few tweaks especially. All and all, I've been happy with how they are handling tanks. Despite the sheer volume of tanking changes that occurred in SB, we are quickly approaching a very well balanced set of tanks. The balance forecast is looking much better than it ever did in HW. I am looking forward to the next round of adjustments.

oh what's this? someone replying to the topic? I agree the tank scene looks much better than It did back in HW by miles, I think the choice of not adding a tank for the sake of tanking balance was a good choice as we can see is paying off, slowly we are almost achiving tha goal "we are not there yet" but we are improving. if this threat serves as a point of reference DRK should be the next class to get the adjustment hammer and hopefully everyone will be happy.

[Azerhan]

I don't feel the balance very much better than HW.
Yes, the PLD was not really good, but for some fight (Sophia, Zurvan for example) he was much better than the DRK (for Sophia) and the WAR (for solo-tanking Zurvan).

He was clearly under the two others, but he was usefull in a lot of cases.

But now, you have: a PLD which is the best MT and an excellent OT, the WAR which is the perfect OT - as he ever was - and the DRK... Which is bad in almost everything.
In another thread about the DRK, a guy made a board with the Cds rotation for each tanks, and the windows during the time you haven't a Cd.
DRK was the worst. More, he doesn't have the support of the PLD for his team.
He litterally has nothing - TBN, is cool, really, I love this spell. But god, it's a 2400 spell for just one player, and with the latence of the game, the 5 sec of TBN, and the fact you have to put it really quickly... Is just usefull with a macro for the other tank, and during TB. It's the only purpose of TBN. It will not make the DRK the equivalent of the PLD, and the dps gain, which sometime is more a loss, doesn't make him the equal of the WAR at this point.

I know you're bored about that everyone is cringing about the DRK, but the fact is that DRK lost everything during SB, when the others tanks gain alot. And you make a thread about the Tank Blance... So here we are.

[MyaValentine]

I don't feel the balance very much better than HW.
Yes, the PLD was not really good, but for some fight (Sophia, Zurvan for example) he was much better than the DRK (for Sophia) and the WAR (for solo-tanking Zurvan).

He was clearly under the two others, but he was usefull in a lot of cases.

But now, you have: a PLD which is the best MT and an excellent OT, the WAR which is the perfect OT - as he ever was - and the DRK... Which is bad in almost everything.
In another thread about the DRK, a guy made a board with the Cds rotation for each tanks, and the windows during the time you haven't a Cd.
DRK was the worst. More, he doesn't have the support of the PLD for his team.
He litterally has nothing - TBN, is cool, really, I love this spell. But god, it's a 2400 spell for just one player, and with the latence of the game, the 5 sec of TBN, and the fact you have to put it really quickly... Is just usefull with a macro for the other tank, and during TB. It's the only purpose of TBN. It will not make the DRK the equivalent of the PLD, and the dps gain, which sometime is more a loss, doesn't make him the equal of the WAR at this point.

I know you're bored about that everyone is cringing about the DRK, but the fact is that DRK lost everything during SB, when the others tanks gain alot. And you make a thread about the Tank Blance... So here we are.

what? I made the thread for the sake of disscussions I never said I was bored or don't want people to talk about drk, feedback is feedback as for your statment you could not be more wrong. here's why.

-first of all the concept of MT and OT is heavily outdate all tanks can MT and OT perfectly and you should be turning around to maximize damage.

-As a pld main, pld by no mean is the best "MT" DRK does more damage than both of them in tank stance, war has the best defensive CD and pld has the best fluf damage mitigation which makes it easier to mt on dps stance. all 3 have their flavor, there's no direct gain to who mt and who ot. Warrior does a bit more damage than pld but offers nothing the party (hence we are getting shake off buff) while ot PLD can offer intervention, passage and clemency DRK has the amazing TBN can as intervention is really good when on the OT spot that if needed can be more useful and better aplied, but then again all 3 tanks do roughfly the same damage so whoever is OT doesn't matter.

-drk does have the worst cd out of the 3 and does less damage than both war and pld (hence people are asking for adjustments for drk)BUT as far as been "bad at everything" is far from the true, while both pld and war are better drk is excellent at both mt ot and pt utility with tbn while not party wide it can save lives. but further adjustment are needed

-during HW WAR was OP, as OP as a class could ever get, perfect mitigation, perfect self-sustain perfect damage hell they 8 manned thordan when it was relevant. war was the "perfect" class.
DRK was the perfect MT did more damage than WAR and PLD during MT did more damage than paladin had bettern defense and constant raid magic damage debut combined with war it was perfect and there was nothing PLD could do tha the other 2 could not an better. PLD had nothing to show up with damage, mitigation or raid utility as it had none that was worth it.

very VERY big scene this time around, for starters all 3 tanks do roughly the same damage, so people wont exclude any tanks doe to damage they all can mt and ot as good as anyone and you don't have any big disadvantages as you did but either swaping a drk or war for a pld. there's no BEST PERFECT SECURE tank yes a lot of people are jumping on the pld bandwagon but PLD and WAR are equally as good drk lagging behind but a "small fraction" nothing compared to how PLD was behind back in HW.

to say tank balance isn't better than HW is a blaband lie it's and it's getting close.

I made this threat before 4.05 and most of the complains were warriors rotation, damage and feel of the class, this was fixed and adjusted warriors feel much better, organize and do more damage bringing warriors up, now the scenery is much different infact there's no talk of warriors at all that just show you the improvent and obviously the to point of disscusion now is DRK. that hopefully soon will get some adjustments on ither 4.1 or 4.15

[Claire_Pendragon]

-first of all the concept of MT and OT is heavily outdate all tanks can MT and OT perfectly and you should be turning around to maximize damage.

-As a pld main, pld by no mean is the best "MT" DRK does more damage than both of them in tank stance

the 2 bolded parts contradict eachother, so I'd wager this is a moot point. (But it is worth mentioning this, because of SE's reasoning behind why they made DRK how it is.)

war has the best defensive CD and pld has the best fluf damage mitigation which makes it easier to mt on dps stance. all 3 have their flavor, there's no direct gain to who mt and who ot. Warrior does a bit more damage than pld but offers nothing the party (hence we are getting shake off buff) while ot PLD can offer intervention, passage and clemency DRK has the amazing TBN can as intervention is really good when on the OT spot that if needed can be more useful and better aplied, but then again all 3 tanks do roughfly the same damage so whoever is OT doesn't matter.

For the most part yeah, DRK was thought to be in the middle of the 2 tanks. Having the constant mitigation a WAR has with inner Beast, using TBN, and having a lesser Cover with TBN. Of course the final result was semi lack luster (though honestly not THAT bad.)

-during HW WAR was OP, as OP as a class could ever get, perfect mitigation, perfect self-sustain perfect damage hell they 8 manned thordan when it was relevant. war was the "perfect" class.

Technically it was 4 PLDs and 4 WARs, with the PLDs using hallowed for various parts, and helping with clemency on other parts. the PLDs usually MTed, while the WARs were just DPS with survivability.

DRK was the perfect MT did more damage than WAR and PLD during MT did more damage than paladin had bettern defense and constant raid magic damage debut combined with war it was perfect and there was nothing PLD could do tha the other 2 could not an better. PLD had nothing to show up with damage, mitigation or raid utility as it had none that was worth it.

WAR did more dmg as a MT than DRK did. Only reason DRK was the MT, was because part of its DPS requires being hit, and WAR did even more dps in OT than DRK does, so the best way to utilize them both, was to put the DRK into MT stance, despite the fact 2 WARs would do more DPS than DRK+WAR. (plus WAR would mitigate more dmg than a DRK would. My group even did double WAR tanking, even with the slight hit to our LB.)
PLD handled physical heavy fights better than DRK. DRK had to rely on foresight, and a reprisal, in order to survive tank busters, and then living dead when those were down, as every other physical CD was down too.
I forget which all those were, other than Sophia (which DRK is fine for, unless ur other tank dies, and u need to take constant TBs) and A11S, which had me stretch my CDs too thin, as there wasnt magic dmg to worry about.
PLD lacked CDs for magical heavy fights, and usually just did a tank swap, to last long enough till the next CD was ready.

very VERY big scene this time around, for starters all 3 tanks do roughly the same damage, so people wont exclude any tanks doe to damage they all can mt and ot as good as anyone and you don't have any big disadvantages as you did but either swaping a drk or war for a pld. there's no BEST PERFECT SECURE tank yes a lot of people are jumping on the pld bandwagon but PLD and WAR are equally as good drk lagging behind but a "small fraction" nothing compared to how PLD was behind back in HW.

to say tank balance isn't better than HW is a blaband lie it's and it's getting close.

I made this threat before 4.05 and most of the complains were warriors rotation, damage and feel of the class, this was fixed and adjusted warriors feel much better, organize and do more damage bringing warriors up, now the scenery is much different infact there's no talk of warriors at all that just show you the improvent and obviously the to point of disscusion now is DRK. that hopefully soon will get some adjustments on ither 4.1 or 4.15

The difference in DPS, compared to DRK, in 3.0, was roughly +100 for WAR, and -100 for PLD.
The difference in DPS from a WAR and DRK atm is roughly 200.
So you could argue the difference is roughly the same as it was in HW.
Except...
(1) The DPS checks arent steep enough anymore, for ppl to start kicking DRKs out for 200 dps, like they were in 3.0
(2) The difference of 200 DPS in 1k DPS is 20% difference. That 200 DPS in the current 4k dps model is only a 5% difference.
So with the above 2, u can argue that it really is more balanced. (depends on your perspective.)

[Sylvain]

(1) The DPS checks arent steep enough anymore, for ppl to start kicking DRKs out for 200 dps, like they were in 3.0
(2) The difference of 200 DPS in 1k DPS is 20% difference. That 200 DPS in the current 4k dps model is only a 5% difference.
So with the above 2, u can argue that it really is more balanced. (depends on your perspective.)

I have to agree, except maybe for the upcoming super savage, I don't see how 5% dmg on a tank can be the reason you fail the boss DPS check. I mean... assuming you can dps for 6min without any interruption (which is unlikely to happen) that's 72k dmg. I don't see how a group wiping on a boss at 0.01% can be the DKR fault at this point. Every single video i've seen player were ahead in term of dps by a good dozen of GCD, and that's before they had all the new fancy gear and iLV.

[MyaValentine]

-the 2 bolded parts contradict eachother, so I'd wager this is a moot point. (But it is worth mentioning this, because of SE's reasoning behind why they made DRK how it is.)

-Technically it was 4 PLDs and 4 WARs, with the PLDs using hallowed for various parts, and helping with clemency on other parts. the PLDs usually MTed, while the WARs were just DPS with survivability.

-WAR did more dmg as a MT than DRK did. Only reason DRK was the MT, was because part of its DPS requires being hit, and WAR did even more dps in OT than DRK does, so the best way to utilize them both, was to put the DRK into MT stance, despite the fact 2 WARs would do more DPS than DRK+WAR. (plus WAR would mitigate more dmg than a DRK would. My group even did double WAR tanking, even with the slight hit to our LB.)
PLD handled physical heavy fights better than DRK. DRK had to rely on foresight, and a reprisal, in order to survive tank busters, and then living dead when those were down, as every other physical CD was down too.
I forget which all those were, other than Sophia (which DRK is fine for, unless ur other tank dies, and u need to take constant TBs) and A11S, which had me stretch my CDs too thin, as there wasnt magic dmg to worry about.
PLD lacked CDs for magical heavy fights, and usually just did a tank swap, to last long enough till the next CD was ready.



-The difference in DPS, compared to DRK, in 3.0, was roughly +100 for WAR, and -100 for PLD.

- That's not a contradiction regarthless of rotation or situation if you have a drk in your party you will maximize more damage by having him as MT as it will do more damage and the other 2 tanks will do more damage as you later pointed out.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSwjtz1Jvg4

-war did not do more damage as mt, stance dance=/= tanks stance, if for some reason drk had to saty the whole fight in tank stance drk did more damage overall. war was just op stance dancing mt was the strongest in everything. most of the fights in HW had magic tank buster then they change it but it didn't change anything as drk+war still offered more mitigation and damage.

- I don't know where to begin but if you think the difference was only 100 dps you are denial not only the difference was higher and the fflogs for pallys were mostlly inflated warriors could more constantly bring those numbers pld could only reach it with dedicated groups, not only that the dps gain didn't came only in personal damage, warrior constant slashing debuff and physical damage debuff allowed for dps to hit harder and healers to dps more, combine with drk you had a full magic/physiscal 10% mitigation warrior self sustain also translated into more healer dps, you will overall net more dps with a warrior than what you could ever done with a paladin.
but as you said this was later patched but bringing down the dps checks demand and allowed for more flexible tank damage.
and yeah while for now the gap is 200 between war and drk you are completely right with 5% vs 20%

not only that but there's nothing you will get with one tank you will miss with the other not only the difference in dps is minimal the none of them offer significant pt buffs to blow eachother out of the water, the balance is much better drk just need a small adjustement and we might have it.

[Claire_Pendragon]

10 and 11 also have a number of magical mechanics and busters

idk 6 and 8 well enough, but 10 and 11 definitely didnt have magical busters.
(its why ppl mentioned PLD MTs for 11 instead of DRK alone, due to there being too many physical TBs.)

- That's not a contradiction regarthless of rotation or situation if you have a drk in your party you will maximize more damage by having him as MT as it will do more damage and the other 2 tanks will do more damage as you later pointed out.

Im not following what your saying. if a WAR stays in deliverance, even in MT position, they will out DPS a DRK who was outside of grit while MTing. I can only agree if you're suggesting a DRK in grit does more dmg than a WAR in defiance.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSwjtz1Jvg4

It seems I mistaken his 4 PLD and 4 WAR run on A12S with his Thoradan run, which was all WARs then. (I had forgotten about this.)

-war did not do more damage as mt, stance dance=/= tanks stance, if for some reason drk had to saty the whole fight in tank stance drk did more damage overall. war was just op stance dancing mt was the strongest in everything. most of the fights in HW had magic tank buster then they change it but it didn't change anything as drk+war still offered more mitigation and damage.

If peopel did it right, u never needed to be in tank stance ever. Just swap, and double up on CDs, since you always had CDs on the OT, that werent being utilized, and with WAR they had them constantly.
I dont really see where you get DRK did more dmg as a MT out of grit. It just doesnt add up. If you're staying out of tank stance, or even dancing, then your DPS should be comparable to your OT DPS, which we know WAR did more of. Plus DRKs need to waste a GCD to turn on grit only hindered them further, worse than a WAR wasting a GCD to Inner Beast.
The only thing DRK had, was reprisal, which was a DPS gain over Vengeance, but not to WAR as a whole.

- I don't know where to begin but if you think the difference was only 100 dps you are denial not only the difference was higher and the fflogs for pallys were mostlly inflated warriors could more constantly bring those numbers pld could only reach it with dedicated groups, not only that the dps gain didn't came only in personal damage, warrior constant slashing debuff and physical damage debuff allowed for dps to hit harder and healers to dps more, combine with drk you had a full magic/physiscal 10% mitigation warrior self sustain also translated into more healer dps, you will overall net more dps with a warrior than what you could ever done with a paladin.

My numbers solely came from early reports of the differences of tanks at 3.0, not later. I never really looked into the differences after each patch, solely because I was the kind of person who would bring double PLDs, because I honestly didnt care that much. I just happen to see what people are saying, took a small look, and didnt dwell on it too much patch after patch.


But I still agree that the balance of SB is better than HW. My only point was that just about any hard core DRK MT could do more DPS if they tried to MT as WAR. (But no hardcore raid group wants to double up on jobs due to LB nerf. Putting DRK or PLD in the OT slot would reduce total raid dmg, but if both MT and OT were WAR, then you wouldnt lower raid dmg.)

I think the better arguement of DRK MT, isnt about it being over WAR, but it being over PLD.
idk the exact numbers, but I did hear PLD got closer to DRK after the patches.
The issue I would see, is that RoH wasnt going to be used for DPS, so the -STR isnt being applied, where as delirium is being applied for -INT.
Then reprisal is -10%, while shield swipe is a useless pacify.
The only thing PLD had, to help with raid DPS, was hallowed ground, but even then, living dead can be comparable, depending on the situation. (Including having a WHM instead of AST/SCH combo)

suggest buffing sole survivor so that it converts party dps into an hp and mp refresh on the party by taking % of average party dps

Actually just make it so each attack landed ont he enemy is a small heal to HP, MP, and TP, by a % of their max. This encourages ppl to kill that target, if there are multiple targets, and isnt too broken for getting healer MP back. Id also make it not work on the DRK, since the DRK is getting HP/MP at the end.

[Sylvain]

I really don't want scourge back. People keep screaming at homogeneity yet they they all want to have the same mechanic-less skills that have no deepness and are just here to be smashed every X secs.
I'm not saying DRK doesn't need a dps boost, but bringing back scourge isn't the solution imo. Every job doesn't need a DoT, that was one thing that made me mad in HW, every job had this one stupid DoT they had to keep on which had no interaction with any other skill (expect BLM with Thundercloud).
Same goes for healers, I don't see why the 3 healers need a DoT, or more specifically, I don't see why Astro has one.

They could simply increase some potency and that'd do the trick without incorporating another useless skill.

[Lambdafish]

Irregardless of balance, I hate the new shake it off. WAR is supposed to be a selfish tank, and not have party wide mitigation. It would have been much better suited as a single target tether that increased the damage of, and maybe give a health regen to both the WAR and target. That's just a spit ball idea, but it far better serves the theme of WAR, and aids in their berserker type tanking style.

SE looked at it and overbuffed it AGAIN (looking at you 3.4 AST), without any thought to job identity or skill synergy.

All I can say is... Look forward to your 4.2/4.3/4.4 overbuff DRKs

[Aana]

Irregardless of balance, I hate the new shake it off. WAR is supposed to be a selfish tank, and not have party wide mitigation. It would have been much better suited as a single target tether that increased the damage of, and maybe give a health regen to both the WAR and target. That's just a spit ball idea, but it far better serves the theme of WAR, and aids in their berserker type tanking style.

SE looked at it and overbuffed it AGAIN (looking at you 3.4 AST), without any thought to job identity or skill synergy.

All I can say is... Look forward to your 4.2/4.3/4.4 overbuff DRKs

It wasn't 'supposed' to be a selfish tank. That's just what it ended up being for the last couple months. Ever since the path change in 2.1 it has brought the most raid mitigation of any tank from 2.2-3.99.

It started as the HP/Healing tank (remember 3x IB damage as heals, TOB, Defiance, wrath giving heal%, Path healing, bloodbath? Vengence giving zero mitigation? Good times. Not really).
They realized it sucked vs mitigation tanking (pld). Age of 2x Pld, 0 war parties.
2.1: Rolled back the HP. Added mitigation. IB/Vengence, Path got raid 10% mitigation. Added LB penalty for stacked jobs.
Golden age of tanking. Plds and Wars dancing hand in hand.
Then Heavensward/Drk/blah blah etc.

If you want to talk about what wars theme is, Wars have always been about HP. Stacking HP, healing HP. The fantasy of not using 'armor' to live, but sheer physical willpower and fortitude. I don't need to reduce your damage. Im gonna take it all and give it back even harder! (Vengence). The charging barbarian style tank (immune to CC, glowing rage eyes, inner release). Big axes, tons of vitality, blood rage style beast that never stops coming. I mean their resource is Wrath and Rage. Taming their inner beasts as a core lore idea. Walking the line between animal rage and control. Unleashing the beast on command and reigning it back in. All so you can protect others.

As for shake it off: Its HP based. (check). It requires balancing their rage and power to help others (literally consumes inner beast/vengeance/thrill of battle to shield others). Hell they had a pvp ability that gave ToB to their party (basically the model for the new shake it off).

This new skill may be many things, but out of character theme it is not.