Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Taika]

Why are you getting so emotional over this?

You are incapable of arguing against her points, so you're going for calling her emotional? Classy.

[era1Ne]

You are incapable of arguing against her points, so you're going for calling her emotional? Classy.

I did argue against her points and this was just a question. But as always, read into it what you want. But maybe you can tell me where i said something like this while we are at it.

Stuff just doesn't do enough damage in this game for you to claim "oh if I cast EVEN ONE Stone IV someone will die!"

Oh wait i never did. I can only assume she gets really emotional about this, because she jumps to conclusion and excuse me of stuff, i have never said. Ever. Thats why i asked.

[Miste]

Now you are jumping to conclusion. I've never said that there is no time to dps. There is a lot of time.

If there is a lot of time to DPS, then there is no downside to using that time when it is safe to use a few DPS spells so like I said you defeated your own argument :/

Why are you getting so emotional over this?

How is my explanation emotional? It's an explanation why there is no excuse for not using at least 1 DPS spell in a fight at least. Nothing emotional about it?

To be honest here I don't believe you actually know me outside of a few forum posts you may have read so assuming how I "feel" emotionally about something is crossing the line into a bit rude here. This is a discussion, not a personal inquest into my emotions.

Also the argument "look they got XY classes at 70, so they must be good". Is just bad. I am an decent monk and an good healer. But i am not an good mch or blm for example. I even got savage gear for those classes. Doesn't mean, i can play them.

Missing the point again. I didn't say "if they have so many classes at 70 they must be good" I said at that point they have no excuse for not at least using 1 DPS spell. Even if it is just an Aero II at pull then nothing else.

This is so funny at this point. But this doesn't take away the fact that a) there is a risk and b) that there are new healers out there, who are not comfortable doing (a lot) of dmg.

What's really funny is you must not realize that you are defending a healer that won't even use Aero II when the tank pulls then heal the rest of the fight. 1 DPS spell, even a new player could safely do this although I don't blame them if they don't since they may not know it is helpful even if just a little. Again we are talking about healers who never touch their DPS spells at all no matter what.

I mean I can tell you about the times in The Vault at the last boss when he summons the fire orbs and there is no undodgeable damage going out and I've had plenty of healers that sit there doing nothing.

There is only a risk at certain times. Sometimes there is NO risk and those are the times that you cannot say "well they don't have to DPS because there is a downside someone might die"...sometimes there is zero risk and some healers still actively refuse to DPS even just a few spells and those are the healers we are talking about.

The new healer thing is a strawman since everyone has agreed we don't care if a new healer DPSes.

At this point you just aren't even reading my posts so why are you even bothering to reply? I already clarified it isn't about doing (a lot) of damage.

You do realize we are not talking about healers who don't do "enough" DPS for our standard right? We are talking about healers who do NONE at all as in doing 0 (minus Assize and Earthy Star since they do damage as well as healing at the same time so it doesn't count). Meaning they used a total of 0 of their DPS spells the entire fight.

I mean you realize you are arguing with someone who is possibly the most lenient person when it comes to this despite my opinions on it right? My expectations are quite low and if a healer simply swiftcasted ONE holy per trash pull where the tank isn't getting whomped I'd be happy they are trying.

[Seoulstar]

You are incapable of arguing against her points, so you're going for calling her emotional? Classy.

I know i've been reply to this thread a lot today..but I'm just going to point out that they actually did argue against her points. Not sure if you looked or just read one sentence out of an entire paragraph and went from there.

[era1Ne]

What's really funny is you must not realize that you are defending a healer that won't even use Aero II when the tank pulls then heal the rest of the fight. 1 DPS spell, even a new player could safely do this although I don't blame them if they don't since they may not know it is helpful even if just a little. Again we are talking about healers who never touch their DPS spells at all no matter what.

Again. I am not talking about pure healers. We are talking about different type of healers here. As i said, i never ever will support pure healers.

I mean you realize you are arguing with someone who is possibly the most lenient person when it comes to this despite my opinions on it right? My expectations are quite low and if a healer simply swiftcasted ONE holy per trash pull where the tank isn't getting whomped I'd be happy they are trying.

So we are basically on the same page, which is funny (as i said). At least for me it is. For me every players, despite their experience, skill, role and so on, should try their best. If you had an very bad experience (for example someone kicked or insulted you, because of one mistake) and you want to play it save for the next run or the specific boss fight, then feel free to do so imo. I don't judge people, who are most of the time in tank stance or very hesitate at dealing dmg, despite knowing you can use most of the time doing dmg instead of healing. This can have all sorts of reason, most of them probably not vaild. But some of them can be, for example beeing very, very insecure, because people insulting them and telling them how bad they are. So they'll play it save and then as their confident grows again, risk more and more.

[magnanimousCynic]

Anyone mind if I share a recipe for homemade pancakes I found off a random website? I mean, this thread literally can't be derailed any more than it currently is.

[Tridus]

The thread is powered by people jumping to different topics all the time. One is talking about the goal of an class in theory, others are talking about inexpierienced healers and then someone comes in with "but... but... the pure healers. They are not ok, right?" (which 97% of people agree with, including me). Add silly arguments to that and then you have an thread, which will never end. This argument is bad, because we discussed what the main job of an class is and this ofc should be done correctly.

Your job is to clear the content. Same as everyone else there. Trying to get away with doing as little as possible makes you no better than that guy in a group project who shows up on the first and last day and is conveniently always busy whenever there's heavy lifting to do.

So an tank who uses one button and does flash, is worse than an tank who does the aggro combo, because the second does dmg aswell, while generate aggro. There is no downside to it by game design.

So an healer who uses one button and does cure, is worse than an healer who does the DPS skills, because the second does dmg aswell, while keeping the party alive. There is no downside to it by game design.

See what I did there?

An healer who does no aoe or instant heals and only uses vita to heal a group up, maybe letting people die is worse than an healer using his kit efficiently and keeping everyone alive

A healer who is idle for 75% of the instance is not using her kit efficiently, for any known definition of "efficient". If you're doing that little, it frankly doesn't matter if you use AoE healing or not. Healing efficiency means absolutely nothing if you're going to spend the gained time twiddling your thumbs.

An dd not using aoe skills, when there are 10000000 mobs is worse, because with one button he does much, much less dmg then using the one gcd doing something efficiently and use aoe skills

He doesn't like that part of his kit and doesn't want to do it. Maybe he only wants to use Riposte, so he can be a "Pure Fencer" (Rapiers are pretty dang cool, after all). People who ignore large swaths of their kit because they don't feel like it are all the same no matter what role they are, and your attempt to carve out a special exception for pure healers is shamelessly transparent. Besides, he's still doing more damage than the healer ignoring Holy in favor of doing absolutely nothing.

TL;DR There is an clear difference between doing your main job and doing your main task very unefficiently

Your main job is to do your part to clear the content. By standing around doing nothing, you are failing at that job.

You can't compare classes like that, because they are different by game design.

By class design, all the healers have DPS skills, enough MP to use them, and time when there is no healing to be done. By refusing to do that, you're actively ignoring he class design that actually exists in favor of some mythical "pure healer" class that doesn't exist.

If you would create this thread in the tank forum, you wouldn't create an thread saying "dear tanks, who don't dps" (there is no downside to use aggro combo, compared to flash in boss fights), but an thread "dear tanks, who are in tank stance all the time". (Would love to see how this goes...) The latter has an downside, since you risk to be not able to do your main task at hand, while playing more efficiently, since tanking out of tank stance is an dmg gain. Healers are still, despite the removal of cleric stance in an similar situations and risk letting people die, depending on how much you are willing to risk/push it, in order to do dmg.

There is absolutely no risk whatsoever in doing damage on a fight like O2N. None. The damage that's coming is telegraphed so far in advance that you could stop and do nothing for 2 GCDs to get ready for it and still have over half the fight to DPS freely. So you're back to a double standard where someone else should do more than the minimum because "there's no downside", but healers are special snowflakes that should do as little as possible because reasons.

Also, leaving tank stance increases the workload on the healers, which is clearly a downside. Good tanks know when that tradeoff is a gain for the group.

[Tridus]

This thread is powered by a energizer battery.

I think it's a Dragoon. Every time someone sees it lying motionless, they cast Raise on it.

[Miste]

As i said, i never ever will support pure healers.

I never technically said that you do, but since you chose to argue with me without knowing my stance on this you confused me and I guess I confused you. I mean I tried multiple times to tell you; it just wasn't getting across.

So we are basically on the same page

I actually straight up said that a few pages ago :/

The only issue that I had were the arguments you were using.

You just misunderstood my line of reasoning of why you cannot use the arguments you were using and the main point of what I was trying to say is that "there is no excuse for not using at least some DPS spells on healer, as in anything more than 0, in a very high amount of cases in this game if you've been playing a healer for more than a few months and aren't new to the content", because there are times when there is no risk or downside to it.

Also sorry, but the argument of "healer DPS and their main task" thing is a flawed argument (at least if I am understanding what your are trying to convey) and I saw you say the PLD comparison was silly, but that actually is the main point of it; that it is silly. A PLD only using flash and mitigation is ridiculous when they could be doing their job PLUS adding DPS by actually pressing more buttons....but so is a healer not using any DPS spells ever... they could be doing their job PLUS adding DPS by actually pressing more buttons when it is safe (and there is a large amount of time when it is safe).

I mean since you agree you don't defend pure healers then I am sure you understand the underlying point I was trying to make with this.

[era1Ne]

Also, leaving tank stance increases the workload on the healers, which is clearly a downside. Good tanks know when that tradeoff is a gain for the group.

Did i say anything different?

There is absolutely no risk whatsoever in doing damage on a fight like O2N. None. The damage that's coming is telegraphed so far in advance that you could stop and do nothing for 2 GCDs to get ready for it and still have over half the fight to DPS freely. So you're back to a double standard where someone else should do more than the minimum because "there's no downside", but healers are special snowflakes that should do as little as possible because reasons.We all got different skill level and if you have watched as much videos of healers

Let me rewrite the start of your post to make my point. If you watched videos of insanely good healers you would know that, there is absolutely "no risk"(There still is a risk imo.) in doing damage on a fight like o2s (or every fight for that matter). The game is designed in a way, healers only have to care about low auto attack dmg even in savage and then spike dmg every now and then.

So correct, right? The problem with your argument is that 90% of all healers are not using every gcd to do something and they are not 90% of the time doing dmg, even if very, very good healers (probably only 5% of the community) actually do it. The proof are their videos or streams. Healers can do so, so much in this game, but most healers can't do it. So while the goal should be always doing something (ABC!), most healers don't do it. The question is why aren't they only healing with ofcd and keeping dots up 100% + doing most of the time dmg skills. There has to be other reasons than just "lazy!, bad, don't want to put effort in", since even decent or good healers have problems casting everytime, depending on the difficulty of the content. This imo has to do with exp, skill and confident.

For you it seems to be easy to do o2n and you can push dmg their as you said, while you can't understand people not doing much dmg there. Fine, others could argue, it is easy to do dmg in savage, so what would you argue against that, if you don't agree with them? Perspective plays an huge part here. For you it could be easy, but this doesn't mean that it is easy for everyone. If you want an answer from me, then i would say there is enough time in every content to do dmg. Savage or not. But we shouldn't ignore the difference in skill, exp and so on.

I never technically said that you do, but since you chose to argue with me without knowing my stance on this you confused me and I guess I confused you. I mean I tried multiple times to tell you; it just wasn't getting across.

In insight, we should have done better at reading/understanding each others posts. And sry, if you did feel insulted or something about my "emotional" comment. Didn't mean it that way