When dps dont aoe should they just get kicked from the start?

[Rokke]

Dragoon here

we don't do AoE

:thinking:

[missybee]

Comedy Gold

I assure you, expert roulette is not "340 iLevel, leet boi raid bullshit."

...nor is knowing that using AoE can be much more optimal than single target.

[Esp]

If you are that horny to get out of the dungeon maybe you need a new game.

Dragoon here when I'm not on a Whm and we don't do AoE but you will see why we are around when a Dragoon unloads on a boss and it looks like a mini limit break.

I'm pretty sure I'm being trolled but screw it, there is your moment I guess..

Aren't limit breaks DPS loses some of the time? xD /s

But seriously, what is this post even? xD

[Snow_Princess]

As a somewhat new player, I find myself oftentimes forgetting about my AoE because it doesn't seem to do a whole lot of damage. I do remember it though, just not always right away, and some people I've run intoreally differ on whether they want you to use it or not. I've not used it, and been told to, and other times in similar situations I've been told not to use it. My ex-bf told me this weekend that if he pulls more than 3 I'm to use AoE and yet other times people have told me not unless there's more than 5. So, it's a bit confuzzling.

I will say that I'd 100% hate being kicked because I wasn't using AoE. At least tell me what you prefer and I'll do my best to accommodate that. Just don't wantonly kick me because I'm playing a way you don't like when I have no idea what you like.

People may do that out from knowing some job and I am assuming you are talking about BLM. With 2 targets, you should be releasing thunder I/III procs on each of them while casting single target, then you flare when mp is low. Some jobs like BLM do slightly unique things when there is 2 monsters, but in general, 3+ you flat out always aoe with the aoe variant of thunder, unless you get a super early poc, then single target thunder on the highest hp monster. There are some moves that do require 5, like arm of the destroyer for monk someone said, so if they know monk, telling a blm when to aoe, it might be a bit wrong on the exact monster count when to do so.

[Sandpark]

Should the DPS AoE in XP or story dungeons?
Should the Tank Mass Pull in XP or story dungeons?
Should the healer DPS in XP or story dungeons?

Unless every single person says yes then this is debatable and there is no one in the absolute right here in that circumstance.

Just want to point out the fault with the two bolded statements here: the math speaks for itself.

Take a single pack of 5 chained mobs. Single pack. No double or triple chain pulls, just a single pack that consists of 5 mobs chained together. At this point, MOST DPS jobs should be using their AOE skills. I will use a couple different examples here.

BRD: Mage's Ballad + Rain of Death versus Mage's Ballad + Bloodletter
MB + Rain of Death: 100 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 500 potency
MB + Bloodletter: 130 potency (single target) x 1 = 130 potency
RDM: Single-target versus Scatter spam/Enchanted Moulinet
Scatter: 200 potency (Dualcasted AOE; 100 potency per cast) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency
Enchanted Moulinet: 200 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 1,000 potency**

Single-target (assuming Ver Ready procs): 570 potency (Verfire/Verstone + Verthunder/Veraero; single-target) x 1 mob = 570 potency
Single-target (Jolt II; no Ver Ready proc): 540 potency (Jolt II + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 540 potency
Single-target (Impact; no Ver Ready proc): 570 potency (Impact + Verthunder/Veraero; single target) x 1 mob = 570 potency

Single-target melee + Verflare/Verholy nuke: 470 potency (Enchanted melee combo; single-target) + 550 nuke (Verflare/Verholy) x 1 mob = 1,020 potency**

**Consider Enchanted melee combo + nuke versus Enchanted Moulinet-- at 90/90 mana, you get 3 Enchanted Moulinets at 200 potency per mob. So, in this example: 5 mobs at 1,000 potency per Enchanted Moulinet for a total of 3,000 potency versus the single-target 1,020 potency.
MNK: Snap Punch versus Rockbreaker; Bootshine versus Arm of the Destroyer
Snap Punch: 170 potency (single target; flank potency) x 1 mob = 170 potency
Rockbreaker: 130 (AOE) x 5 mobs = 550 potency

Bootshine: 140 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 140 potency
Arm of the Destroyer: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency
BLM: Fire II versus Fire IV
Fire II: 80 potency (AOE) x 5 mobs = 400 potency
Fire IV: 260 potency (single target) x 1 mob = 260 potency
The math speaks for itself here. When it comes to a "right," AOE in a "larger pull" (3+ mobs) is the "right" thing to do. The math doesn't lie here. Not trying to argue you specifically, but just saying that you (general "you") can't really argue with the numbers (although I know that some people try to).

Hopefully my math is all correct...double and triple checked everything but I haven't slept in several hours so I'm kinda like @.@ right now....

There is no fault in the statement depending on where you are coming from.

Are you coming from everyone should do 100% best effort because story or normal dungeons are the difficult content? They are not hence we have hard,extreme, savage, super savage.

I am not speaking about math. You may very well be right mathematically about AoE vs Single target. I am speaking about the intent and purpose of normal or MSQ dungeons. The intent or purpose of any FF game in the story or introduction dungeons is to progress, often these fights are not meant to be the epitome of difficult content, but a segue into later gameplay.

If you are coming from a I play rpgs to explore and experience content/story that includes playing/experimenting in a style I enjoy. Then even if the math says otherwise, as long as you can win, then it may be more fun. Games are supposed to be fun first before a job. Locking players out of the basic progress or encouraging players to question to kick is going against that grain.

I came from FFXI, not as difficult as this game in terms of execution but still a more fun game in terms of open playstyle. Combat was more oriented towards group synergy versus self rotations in this game. It's like XI was a team based strategy game with coordinated plays while this one is more but not entirely about how good or fancy I can dribble or break ankles or drive down the lane.

Someone mentioned that 5 X <xpotency> is better than 1 X <xpotency>

If that is true then single target skills potency needs to be increased. My main point is that it's fine if AoE is better than single target, but when it becomes a must have or you get kicked from the casual normal or story MSQ, then it either needs to be nerfed or a better option is to allow players to progress casually through normal and MSQ with friends or npcs. No strenuous barriers to getting to max level, it's already bad enough sometimes you have to come to a halt in story progression due to queues. Let's not make that more terrible by getting kicked because someone doesn't want to AoE or risk getting kicked.

[Esp]

Hmm....

If things start to go sour when NICELY asked, such as harrasement, name calling and the like, then sure, vote kick away.

Then...

Don't worry about me mucking up your world. If I do get around to raids, I'll use a linkshell and you won't be seeing me in your cool kids, circle jerk. Have fun though.

Think I got my point across, even if its not in a DF currently. xD

[ChaoticCrimson]

<Snip>

Can I just thank you for showing the math on this? Because I'm still new and working on leveling RDM, so I was worried I might have been incorrect in my assumption that it would be better cycling Scatter > alternating main Ver-spells in 3+ mobs. My thinking was that you wear down the pack with the aoe while alternating the single-target skill to a.) build the mana gauges as you stated and b.) knock out one of the enemies faster to more quickly reduce strain on tanks/healers. Haven't gotten far enough in the MSQ to go through dungeons that allow me to utilize my Moulinet and Contre Sixte yet, though I want to learn to put them to good use when I can. I have wondered that after a certain amount of enemies if I should just forgo the Ver-spells in favor of pure aoe...

Anyway, as for the main matter at hand, from this newbie's perspective I think the best thing to do would be to say something along the lines of "try using aoe for 3+, it usually helps things go faster". If they're learning like myself they may appreciate the advice and try to make use of it. Give the person time to put your advice to practice (they might need a bit to acclimate and break their bad habits), and if they seem uncooperative, or antagonistic even, then perhaps act accordingly. But I for one would be discouraged if I got kicked without anyone saying a word to me about what I was doing wrong. I'm also learning it's important to let the group know that you're new and still learning, if that is the case. Ultimately, if everyone's able to communicate and work together then things should go a lot more smoothly with much less frustration. This can be tougher for the duty finder, however, but in that case communication is probably even more important.

[Hruodig]

There is no fault in the statement depending on where you are coming from.

Are you coming from everyone should do 100% best effort because story or normal dungeons are the difficult content? They are not hence we have hard,extreme, savage, super savage.

You should be giving your all in all content because you respect other people's time. Doesn't matter what content it is, you should always be giving it your all. Don't be lazy for no reason.

I am not speaking about math. You may very well be right mathematically about AoE vs Single target. I am speaking about the intent and purpose of normal or MSQ dungeons. The intent or purpose of any FF game in the story or introduction dungeons is to progress, often these fights are not meant to be the epitome of difficult content, but a segue into later gameplay.

If you are coming from a I play rpgs to explore and experience content/story that includes playing/experimenting in a style I enjoy. Then even if the math says otherwise, as long as you can win, then it may be more fun. Games are supposed to be fun first before a job. Locking players out of the basic progress or encouraging players to question to kick is going against that grain.

This isn't that type of game. There's very little "exploration" or "experimentation" to do. This is how FF XIV combat works: You are given a job. This is what your job does. Now try to do it perfectly. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a "wrong" way to play these classes. Ice mage is wrong. Monks without positionals are wrong. Dragoons not using blood of the dragon are wrong. Period. You're wasting other people's time because you wanna be some sort of special, unique individual. That's now how this game works.

I came from FFXI, not as difficult as this game in terms of execution but still a more fun game in terms of open playstyle. Combat was more oriented towards group synergy versus self rotations in this game. It's like XI was a team based strategy game with coordinated plays while this one is more but not entirely about how good or fancy I can dribble or break ankles or drive down the lane.

No one cares how things were in FF XI, this isn't that game. This game relies on teamwork too, just in a different way. Everyone has their own job to do, and if they strive to do it well then we succeed.

Someone mentioned that 5 X <xpotency> is better than 1 X <xpotency>

If that is true then single target skills potency needs to be increased. My main point is that it's fine if AoE is better than single target, but when it becomes a must have or you get kicked from the casual normal or story MSQ, then it either needs to be nerfed or a better option is to allow players to progress casually through normal and MSQ with friends or npcs. No strenuous barriers to getting to max level, it's already bad enough sometimes you have to come to a halt in story progression due to queues. Let's not make that more terrible by getting kicked because someone doesn't want to AoE or risk getting kicked.

There's no "may be", or "ifs", about it, AOE is factually, mathmatically better on trash mobs. The number is different depending on the class, but it is better. There's no subjectivity to it. Single target potencies don't need to be buffed-that's stupid. Players just need to understand that you need to make use out of your entire skill kit, according to the situation. It's really not that hard to understand.

[Amariel34]

Now I want a baby tonberry minion. Make it happen SE!

[Sandpark]

You should be giving your all in all content because you respect other people's time. Doesn't matter what content it is, you should always be giving it your all. Don't be lazy for no reason.



This isn't that type of game. There's very little "exploration" or "experimentation" to do. This is how FF XIV combat works: You are given a job. This is what your job does. Now try to do it perfectly. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a "wrong" way to play these classes. Ice mage is wrong. Monks without positionals are wrong. Dragoons not using blood of the dragon are wrong. Period. You're wasting other people's time because you wanna be some sort of special, unique individual. That's now how this game works.



No one cares how things were in FF XI, this isn't that game. This game relies on teamwork too, just in a different way. Everyone has their own job to do, and if they strive to do it well then we succeed.

There's no "may be", or "ifs", about it, AOE is factually, mathmatically better on trash mobs. The number is different depending on the class, but it is better. There's no subjectivity to it. Single target potencies don't need to be buffed-that's stupid. Players just need to understand that you need to make use out of your entire skill kit, according to the situation. It's really not that hard to understand.

You give your all in fate parties when not trying to go for gold? Or when you are just trying to relax and get good xp maybe while multitasking?

My whole point is why am I forced to respect people's time in the place where experience points come easier? I am saying MSQ or normal dungeons should be not party only if it is causing people to kick each other and stunt another's progress.

Point two I agree very much so. Play your role or get your hand spanked, play your role sub optimally and get kicked.

Not really, you perfect your own world but you don't really do teamwork other than dodging mechanics together and manage a few group buffs.

If AoE is undeniably better than single target regardless of job on trash mobs then what I said makes even more sense. No skill or job should be so overpowered that the other skills or jobs be cast from content. That's why nerfs and buffs exist, it's this thing called balance that most mmos try to strive for but never perfect. What you just said is that you should make use of your entire tookit according to the situation. Well look at the OP topic. There is no alternate situations, it's a flat out questioning if players should be kicked for not using a piece of their toolkit in all dungeons, not one particular dungeon.

Lol about me wanting to be a snowflake. That is what whining about other players or glamouring basically boils down to. I am not saying I am above it either but let's be real here. Everyone wants to be a snowflake.