When dps dont aoe should they just get kicked from the start?

[TouchandFeel]

If you don't want to be grouped with someone, that's your prerogative. But that's what the "Leave" feature is for. It's NOT what the "Kick" feature is for.

If multiple people in the group don't want the person that is not trying, that is precisely what vote kick is for. If it was just me and the rest of the group disagreed, then the vote kick would not go through and I would either accept the will of the group and just keep going or I would decide to leave.
It's a vote put forth that requires the agreement from a majority to go into action, unlike one person deciding that they want to not put in any effort and have everyone else pick up their slack.

Besides, as I said in the post that you selectively quoted from, I believe in communicating first and then if they respond rudely or tell you they don't care and everyone should just deal, then a vote kick may be warranted.

Above all else I believe in the good of the party over any one individual's self-focused desires. If that means sticking with a group that isn't very good but are trying and want to improve even when I know I could get a much faster and easier run with a better group, I will stay and do what I can to help. That also means not sitting idle when one person selfishly drags the group as a whole down because they just don't care.

We were put together as a group and should work together as a group for the good of the group. It is as simple as that.

[Niwashi]

If multiple people in the group don't want the person that is not trying, that is precisely what vote kick is for.

No, it's not. The vote kick feature is there to get rid of trolls who are harassing you, or players who are AFK or lost their connection to the game. It's not there to get rid of players you (or even your whole group) don't want to play with. The voting aspect is just a way to confirm that the harassment is taking place, by having multiple people corroborate that claim, since it's a hard thing for software to verify without human input.

Unfortunately, the GMs decided they didn't want to police kick abuse, so they announced that they'll never punish anyone for kicking a player even without a valid reason for it. But "you won't get punished for it" is very different than "that's what it's for". If we were discussing whether you can get away with kicking someone just for not using AoE (or otherwise not playing up to their potential), then yes, you can get away with it. It's the same way you can get away with kicking someone for wearing blue if you prefer red. That, too, would be a case where they're not playing the way you want.

Far too many players have taken the GMs' decision to allow any and all kicks without repercussions as though that meant it's what vote kick is for — to get rid of anyone they don't like. They'll corroborate claims of harassment or being AFK even when it's clear neither is true, just because it's a way to get rid of someone.

There are only four VALID reasons for initiating or agreeing to a Vote Kick, and SE points them out every time it comes up. Here they are:

• AFK
• Offline
• Harrassment
• Cheating

If something is not in that list, then it's not what vote kick is for. Sticking with just single target attack combos is not in that list.

as I said in the post that you selectively quoted from, I believe in communicating first

I apologize for the selective quoting. I actually do respect the fact that you try communicating and helping those who will accept help. Too many don't.

I quoted from you just because you stated the "don't want you in my group" reason more succinctly than many others who have expressed the same idea (some of them advocating it earlier, even without the communication attempts you try first), and it's that general sentiment I was arguing about.

and then if they respond rudely or tell you they don't care and everyone should just deal, then a vote kick may be warranted.

If they're rude enough about it that you consider it harassment, then that can be a valid reason for vote kicking someone. But the lack of AoE on its own isn't.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

All the reasons you listed for why someone may wantonly attempt to kick another player are separate from what I explicitly stated is the factor I take into account, whether or not they are even bothering to try. Even the statement you quoted explicitly says "the person that is not trying".

There are many subjective and potentially selfish reasons that I may not want a person in my group, such as I hate their glamour or I think they have a stupid name. While such may result in an eyeroll from me, it is never something I would ever consider fair game for a vote kick.

As you stated, harassment is a valid reason for a vote kick. When someone chooses to make things more difficult for others and to make the group's shared playtime less enjoyable, whether verbally or through their actions, or inaction in the case of not trying, I consider that harassment. Cussing someone out and intentionally wasting someone's time are both disrespectful.

It is also very obvious when someone isn't trying, but believing that people should be given the benefit of the doubt and to not assume immediate guilt, I always try to communicate first as I stated. How they respond makes it quite clear whether or not they are trying. A person that is trying will listen, ask questions or try to work with the team. A person that isn't trying tends to just gets belligerent or tells you to bugger off.

Really it's less about x player not playing y way and more about selfish jerks being selfish jerks and not giving a flying moogle turd about their effect on the group.

Vote kicking should pretty much never be the first option, but people should be held accountable for bad behaviour which includes choosing to make the group's run more difficult by not putting in any effort.