Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Kabooa]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm not sure that venting pointlessly about said pointless venting is adding value to the discussion.

Haaaah.

That's like the first genuine smile I've had from this thread.

[Moogly]

Me and Cynfael were pointing out there are no reasonable arguments for why healers shouldn't be DPSing, while there clearly are reasonable arguments for why they should.

A healer being new on the job and doing zero DPS due to a lack of confidence, is a valid reason... Many DPSing healer are not taking that into account, or just won't plain accept it as a valid reason : which is not the same as a "reasonnable argument"...
I really want to point out how some people here only consider the "technical" aspect of the problem (no DPS = loss of efficiency) and totally ignore the "personal" aspect of that problem (new, unconfident, lack of time to play, not skilled...).
That's what I tried to explain through my previous posts, but most people were totally blind to it, always coming back to the "efficiency" argument, and "do it for the group" argument.
In a discussion, not even considering the other party argument as valid, will render any attempt to debate over something useless (watch starship troopers, when two experts discuss about insects intelligence)... And it will even make things worse, if one of the group feels it is in a "superior" position (obviously here, pro-healers)
In fact, reading more and more of this thread, to me it feels like the most demanding people here, under the guise of "this is better for the group", are actually demanding more from others for their own personnal benefit. Like : "git gud" so I can get my tomestones faster... Or at least that's what I feel when they totally ignore the "social" aspect of the problem.
Or it feels like some people just want efficiency as hard as if they were working to earn money out of the game...

All that debating is useless as community and game dev team visions of the healer are not the same, and will continue to fuel this rubbish debate.
When you run DF, just try to accomodate with whoever you were teamed up with. And if it doesn't work, you can still ask to be kicked or leave... I only initiated a kick once or twice for rude behaviour, else I am usually the one leaving when playstyles are definitely not compatible.

[Taika]

A healer being new on the job and doing zero DPS due to a lack of confidence, is a valid reason...

Unlike you're claiming, no one here has said otherwise (of course I may have missed a post, in which case feel free to correct me). On the contrary, it's very often brought up that players who are new to the job (or content) are not and should not expected to DPS (even though it is useful to start learning it as early as possible ). So unless I'm very much mistaken, your argument is a strawman.

Edit: Trying to find some proof for my argument really quick...

Pretty much every attempt to excuse experienced players from using their full kits...

And, as it probably has to be noted once again: straight out refusing to do something out of principle is a different thing from not being able to do something in a particular situation because of actual reasons such as lack of experience or MP or having a really bad party.

To be fair, no one is arguing inexperienced healers need to "test their limits." There's a significant difference between dealing some damage and none whatsoever. That being said, if you're entirely new to a fight, say so. People are far more forgiving when they're forewarned by another player's inexperience and may even offer some advice. We're also not talking about those healers but the ones who actively won't try to improve or refuse to DPS on some sort of silly principle.

This is not a conversation about helping new players. The pro-DPS side of this argument has said 10+ times that DPS can and should be expected from healers when the party is healthy, they have mp to spare and they are familiar with the content...

[Moogly]

There is no need to look back in the thread : you're saying it...

Me and Cynfael were pointing out there are no reasonable arguments for why healers shouldn't be DPSing

To which anti-DPS will easily answer : YoshiP sides with us....

Anyway, read the rest of my previous post, needed to do an edit to pass the 1000 char limits....

[Jollyy5]

When I introduced my friend to FFXIV and started playing together, he picked Scholar to my surprise. I told him that in this game, many expect you to DPS as a healer, so you might want to learn to DPS whenever you don't need to heal.

He liked the idea and picked it up out the box, although having to play as a DPS for the first 30 levels might've helped.

The way I see it, a healer who doesn't DPS has one of the following problems:

1. Has crippling hardware problems.
2. Is a cripple.
3. Had no one to tell them that healers are expected to DPS until level 60+ or something.
4. Is lazy and/or stubborn. (As in having a "I'm a healer, so I will only heal, period." mentality.)
5. IRL emergencies/distractions.
6. Is new to games in general.

[Taika]

To which anti-DPS will easily answer : YoshiP sides with us....

Do you honestly think, that "this guy says so" is a reasonable argument or grounds for anything? Whatever Yoshi P says has no relevance whatsoever to how the game is actually played - and how the game actually works is what is relevant to this discussion, not how it's talked about. (He of course is in the power of adjusting the game in a way that changes our play style if he so wishes, but that's a separate question - although it may be worth noting that the way he and his team have currently designed the game is exactly the reason why healers are and should be DPSing.)

In fact, reading more and more of this thread, to me it feels like the most demanding people here, under the guise of "this is better for the group", are actually demanding more from others for their own personnal benefit. Like : "git gud" so I can get my tomestones faster... Or at least that's what I feel when they totally ignore the "social" aspect of the problem.

Erm... these are discussion forums about the healer roles in this game, meant and generally used for discussing optimal play for each role (just like the tank and DPS roles which are full of discussions of optimal rotations, stat weights, use of abilities etc.). I take part in these discussions because I'm interested in how these roles are played optimally (as an ex raid healer and current extreme/dungeon healer, but also in general), just like I follow (and sometimes take part in) discussions about how the DPS and tank jobs are played optimally. You may get various feelings reading these discussions that direct your interpretations of them, but in this case at least your line of thought seems a bit far-fetched. It's more likely people read and take part in this discussions because they want to (know how to) play better.

[Lastelli]

I really want to point out how some people here only consider the "technical" aspect of the problem (no DPS = loss of efficiency) and totally ignore the "personal" aspect of that problem (new, unconfident, lack of time to play, not skilled...).

Not really. The whole healers dps argument is precisely about the personal aspect because we've had tons of people trying to justify healers not dpsing arguing that "it's not their job, so they don't have to".
People that support healers dps argue that a healer not dpsing is just "new, unconfident, lack of time to play, not skilled..." as you said or just bad/watching netflix during an instance (trust me, this is NOT a joke, it's what a lot of players do and not just healers).
Therein lies the problem. People that defend healers that refuse to dps typically don't want to acknowledge this lack of skill or experience. They're healers, they heal, they don't have to dps, as long as they heal they're good players, that's what they usually say. I think no one here ever suggested that a healer should make dps their #1 priority. But a good healer is not one that uses 1/3 of their toolkit and is active for 50% of an encounter, that's for sure.

[Jollyy5]

...

Exactly, it's not fair if the healer gives 20% while everyone else is giving 100%.

People who argue that they don't need to DPS need to take a tour in the Hall of the Novice.

[MoroMurasaki]

... In fact, reading more and more of this thread, to me it feels like the most demanding people here, under the guise of "this is better for the group", are actually demanding more from others for their own personnal benefit. Like : "git gud" so I can get my tomestones faster... Or at least that's what I feel when they totally ignore the "social" aspect of the problem...

All that debating is useless as community and game dev team visions of the healer are not the same, and will continue to fuel this rubbish debate.
When you run DF, just try to accomodate with whoever you were teamed up with. And if it doesn't work, you can still ask to be kicked or leave... I only initiated a kick once or twice for rude behaviour, else I am usually the one leaving when playstyles are definitely not compatible.

I'm bothered by this for two main reasons.

I understand I can only represent my own opinions but I do feel like these sentiments can be and have been echoed by the pro DPS side of this debate.

First off the straw man that we are out there hunting down new healers who don't DPS to kick/berate/emotionally eviscerate them. The only thing I have personally said that can relate to this is that I believe a group has a right to kick a healer who refuses to DPS under the "different playstyles" umbrella. To say otherwise is just intellectually dishonest. To be fair I guess this means I could get kicked from a group for DPSing as a healer and while I think that would be a stupid decision I respect my parties right to make it.

The second issue is that the anti-DPS side of the debate seems to fuel itself. You make these arguments and defend this poor playstyle which leads to more people accepting it which leads to more new healers adopting it.

I'm going to use myself as an example. My first class was CNJ and after doing the Sylphie quests my takeaway from that was "use all your abilities" so right from the get go I assumed I had to DPS in dungeons. This was back when that also meant stance dancing to be able to heal. That is how I learned my role and I developed certain habits from it which help me DPS effectively to this day.

There have been a few times my boyfriend is sitting next to me watching me play where my tank(s)/cohealer are complete crap and I'll say something like "that's it, I'm gonna have to stop DPSing to keep these people up" and get all frustrated... but then still maintain my dots at least because it's so built into how I play this game.

I understand how intimidating it may seem to start DPSing when you've been not doing it for a big part of your FFXIV life because I know how hard it is for me to make myself go "pure healer" in the very rare chance I need to do that for a bit. Saying that it is okay for new players to contribute no damage is letting them build up this bad habit which is going to be harder to break the longer they play that way.

I repeat - I do not want a witch hunt for zero DPS healers. I want people, when they encounter someone who plays that way, to offer up some advice on Dots or the stun from a Holy cast or how you can shield the tank and open up a DPS window for yourself. Sometimes you will get back a string of profanity or a "you don't pay my sub" and then it is up to you if you want to keep playing with that person or kick them or leave. Sometimes you might help broaden someone's horizons and help make them a better healer though, is that not worth occasionally getting called a "nosy bitch"?

I think at this point it has been established at the very least that a healer who contributes DPS is objectively better than one who does not assuming they still manage to fill their healer role, why then would you want to turn fledgling healers into less effective versions of themselves if it can be avoided?

[Kabooa]

Exactly, it's not fair if the healer gives 20% while everyone else is giving 100%.

People who argue that they don't need to DPS need to take a tour in the Hall of the Novice.

Everyone else giving 100% is plain not true.

Which is why these threads tend to be nothing more than a way to vent.