[Stormblood] [Dragoon Rotation] COME ON AND SLAM

[Orphan_Benn]

I've just seen it over the lost allagan pants when it would seem they are the better choice

I've been doing testing of Skill Speed in relation to our abilities lining up. Overall I've got to say around 700-1000 feels pretty great (with 300 feeling slow and 1400 being fun but hard to double weave) but the kicker is of course the loss of stats in other areas for taking it. Honestly, until I can get my hands on a full set of both Allagan and Genji to really test out the different builds it's hard to say how much exactly we'll really need but I can say that we do need some. Which seeing as we have to take 117 from the Allagan ring, means that the additional 253 from the Genji legs places us at 734 SS which I think is a pretty nice place for us to be. By using the pants and not other items to get the SS we only lose out on DET, which again isn't too bad at all when you consider that it's 3500 Crit and DH combined that we're really aiming for.

[SunnyHirose]

Hm, I've been testing at 364 SS now and then; didn't detect any serious problems. It may be difficult for some, and may require adjusted expectations, and in the end it may be provably suboptimal if and when someone can outline it in great detail. Though, it is the kind of thing people want the heavy-duty simulators for in other games.

But I don't anticipate any disasters that would put it in the "need" category. If anything, I think it fixes more tough knots than it creates. For instance, the ol' Jump + Life Surge collision doesn't turn up at the normal place. The obvious major drawback is BotD maintenance in low-uptime situations.

[Teriel]

Sunny I would like to mention that using if you are using an Infusion pot, it may be more beneficial to use that after impulse drive as with lower skill speed (what we are aiming for) using BfB and DS may cause the earlier one or even both to fall off before the lance mastery strike which now is stronger but even before. This also means that DS comes up just before a lance mastery and BfB should miss chaos thrust and come under lance mastery also.

i usually do at 3s before the pull
(BotD) Elusive Jump
(Heavy Thrust) Battle Litany
(Impulse Drive) Infusion of Strength
(Disembowel) Blood for blood + Dragon Sight
(Chaos Thrust) Jump
(Wheeling Thrust) Mirage Dive
(Fang and Claw) Dragonfire Dive
(True Thrust) Spineshatter Dive
(Vorpal Thrust) Geirskogul + Life Surge
(Full Thrust) Mirage Dive
(Fang and Claw)
(Wheeling Thrust)
works out pretty well and you can usually squeeze in another Heavy thrust before B4B and dragon sight wear off

[kyrios91]

Just got the O3S pants and i wonder if it's better than the i320 crafted pants?

[Jonnycbad]

i usually do at 3s before the pull
(BotD) Elusive Jump
(Heavy Thrust) Battle Litany
(Impulse Drive) Infusion of Strength
(Disembowel) Blood for blood + Dragon Sight
(Chaos Thrust) Jump
(Wheeling Thrust) Mirage Dive
(Fang and Claw) Dragonfire Dive
(True Thrust) Spineshatter Dive
(Vorpal Thrust) Geirskogul + Life Surge
(Full Thrust) Mirage Dive
(Fang and Claw)
(Wheeling Thrust)
works out pretty well and you can usually squeeze in another Heavy thrust before B4B and dragon sight wear off

Not sure what my problem is, but when I do this, B4B is not up for when I get LoTD up, and I only get 1 Natrond under B4B when I thought we should be able to get at least 2 Nastrond under B4B, unless the first is the exception?

[SunnyHirose]

(I apologize for some ongoing major delays, I've been a little distracted, shall we say)

To get Geirskogul+2x Nastrond under BfB in your first LotD window, while it is not absolutely imperative, I strongly recommend making BfB at least 2 GCDs before Jump in your opener for the sake of cutting yourself some slack. The logic goes something like:

BfB at X seconds, Jump at Y (Y = X + y, y > 2.3), MD, SSD at Z (Z = Y + z, z > 4.6), MD, Jump at Y+~30, MD, Jump at Y+~60, MD [LotD ready], SSD at Z+~60, BfB at X+~80, Geir, Nas/MD

Because Mirage Dive lasts 15 seconds from the activation of your Jump, you can prove from this sequence that you ought to lose the 5th MD if it happens at the same time as the 2nd BfB, since they can't both be done at the exact same time (and ideally you'd also want it after Geirskogul so it contributes to the next LotD):
Z+60+15 > X+80
Z > X+5
X+min(y)+min(z) = X+2.3+4.6 = X+6.9

So 6.9-5 = 1.9s of slack with a 2.3s GCD. That really isn't ideal, since there's a Geirskogul to smash somewhere in there and possibly a desire to wait on BotD gauge to build. This is the (formalized) reasoning behind why I modified the sample opener to put BfB before Disembowel back in July.

[ChaozK]

For a savage-clearing raider who can expect to obtain all the i340 gear in this gear set, I believe your stat weights are or are close to:
19.25 Physical Damage
1.000 Strength
0.166 Critical Hit
0.149 Direct Hit
0.145 Determination
0.120 Skill Speed

For a tomestone-only dragoon who will only be getting to i340 sometime in patch 4.1, this is what you can look forward to. Your weights at i340 are rather different:
19.28 Physical Damage
1.000 Strength
0.128 Critical Hit
0.147 Direct Hit
0.142 Determination
0.126 Skill Speed

Could you elaborate a bit on what the threshold is where you start to favor crit over det?

[SunnyHirose]

Could you elaborate a bit on what the threshold is where you start to favor crit over det?

Verily, I do nothing of the sort! What I do is use estimations of DPS to determine what the changes in DPS ought to be per stat point (relative to that gearset), then use that to maximize weights into a new gearset, and repeat over and over until I'm not getting new results. Then I settle on the best one I found thus far. So for true BiS, that especially means redoing melds to give all candidates for "best stat" a fair shot, whereas for the tome-only set, you're stuck with whatever ballpark it's in.

Weights are always relative to a gearset, so basically I don't look at thresholds and I don't come up with half-baked rules of thumb as to when one is better or whatever. Ever since the page system got added I have simply assumed you know what gear you will get in the end and should meld towards that.

Alas, it gets worse than that. Because the reward from stats has rounding stuff going on, you do not get rewarded for every single point of a stat you put in. That means maximizing weights does not guarantee you find the best result, although you can expect to get close; e.g. even when CH>DH by weight, it is often the case that +40 DH > +40 CH, and very very often +12 DH > +12 CH. There is no good way to tell that just by looking.

This is the problem I'm looking to solve. I think I've devised a computationally sane way around it; only building it and testing the program can prove it, though.

[AgitoKaguya]

Hey fellow Dragoons,

After reading this thread since SB, I've decided to make a post to see if I can find some opinions. I live far away from the datacenter and have a high latency (~250ms). Double weave is impossible without clipping GCD so I'm working on an opener with a minimum of double weave.

I came with this first : http://ffxivrotations.com/13h0
Not that bad but the 2nd 5th combo is not buffed by DS (buff falling off). No potion cause finding a slot for it will force double weave.

I came with a 2nd opener: http://ffxivrotations.com/13h3
The 2nd 5th combo is buffed by DS and I can even fit a potion but I'm worried with the way Jump and Spineshatter are delayed.

I have to sacrifice something to get the 2nd 5th combo buffed but is it worth it ?
I need opinions of DRG with maybe a better analysis and vision of the problem.

Sincerly, a DRG that doesn't want to drop the spear

[LiquidSwordz]

As a DRG with having 2.48 GCD, I can tell you it feels too slow. I have the savage chest, allagan legs and genji spear. I believe the savage pants are a must with the SS while still being able to double weave.

As for an opener, this is what I find to be the best without delaying mirage dive...


http://ffxivrotations.com/148w