Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

[Miste]

"Why aren't you using scatter" vs. "Try using scatter in packs" - vastly different tones between two fairly similar comments, neither of which are worded for a child. It's really not difficult to be helpful and civil without coming off like you're just harping on someone.

I'm sorry, but Mavrias has a good point.

People should not be getting defensive over simple words. There is literally no difference between those two sentences. You just made up a difference in your mind and there is a simple way that I know this. There is no "tone" in text on a screen and so many people fail to realize this. You are attaching your own tone to it when it may not be the same or intended tone of the person who wrote it, but in-game being text only you won't know their tone so you need to be neutral.

When you read something someone else has written you should take it at face value and not add an imaginary tone to it in your mind. This would cause you to not only be more relaxed, but also to not treat someone else like crap for no reason because you mislabeled their intentions. Assumptions are bad. They might have had a happy tone or a neutral tone, but you condemn them without even knowing.

If the person chatting used rude language then you obviously can tell their intention, but simply "why aren't you using scatter?" vs. "try using scatter in packs" is just the same way to convey the same information. One is a question so the other party can answer while the other is a suggestion. In the end they mean the same thing "scatter is a good spell to use on multiple mobs" with no swearing or harassment present at all.

No one is going to want to bother trying to help anyone else in this community if they need to walk on eggshells and make sure they write the most perfect sentence to make sure the other person doesn't get pissed off. I mean why do people think it is okay to verbally harass someone for asking a simple question of making a simple statement is beyond me anyway, but I see it happen too often.

The problem with trying to help others in this game isn't how people word things. The problem is people getting defensive over nothing.

That is why I basically stopped offering advice or trying to help people very much anymore. I just get sh** on for it no matter how nice I try to word it.

I've been told to "f*** off" more times I can count, I've been called elitist, I've been called a "c***". I mean these kind of responses you'd think I said something really horrible to them right? Nope. It is usually something like "Hey X, ______ is/are great spells/abilities you should try using them sometimes and it will help your rotation and damage" or heck before stormblood one time I got a nasty response like that for just reminding a NIN they forgot their poison buff.

I don't think how I worded it is the problem, nor did I deserve that verbal abuse for simple questions or suggestions. People are too defensive and your post, Skivvy, kind of highlights part of the problem. Tone doesn't exist in text.

PS. I am not saying you do anything like this Skivvy, after the first paragraph the "you" are pretty much "general you" not towards you personally. Just branched off your post to explain why wording things isn't the problem.

[TaleraRistain]

People should not be getting defensive over simple words. There is literally no difference between those two sentences. You just made up a difference in your mind and there is a simple way that I know this. There is no "tone" in text on a screen and so many people fail to realize this. You are attaching your own tone to it when it may not be the same or intended tone of the person who wrote it, but in-game being text only you won't know their tone so you need to be neutral.

It is possible to inject tone into a sentence with word choice. Look up a few posts at Vandril's. There are good examples and explanations how this is possible in that post.

[Altena]

I'm sorry, but Mavrias has a good point.

People should not be getting defensive over simple words. There is literally no difference between those two sentences. You just made up a difference in your mind and there is a simple way that I know this. There is no "tone" in text on a screen and so many people fail to realize this. You are attaching your own tone to it when it may not be the same or intended tone of the person who wrote it, but in-game being text only you won't know their tone so you need to be neutral.

All nice in theory, however there are certainly phrases that sound more polite / less aggressive through text. Reducing the number of ways someone can interpret something is the most ideal way to go.. Even if it takes a few extra words to say it in a particular tone, it can make all the difference.. You can say "people should take things from a neutral ground", however that doesn't solve the issue that many (if not most) just won't.

90% of the way someone interprets a message is based on the wording of the message.. If you just say "Use xxxxx skill" it can come across in so many different perspectives..
Saying something like "You should try to use xxxx skill because of xxxx reason", it reduces the number of ways the message can be interpreted. Many would see the former as a demand, whereas the latter would be taken more as a small helpful tip.

When you read something someone else has written you should take it at face value and not add an imaginary tone to it in your mind. This would cause you to not only be more relaxed, but also to not treat someone else like crap for no reason because you mislabeled their intentions. Assumptions are bad. They might have had a happy tone or a neutral tone, but you condemn them without even knowing.

If the person chatting used rude language then you obviously can tell their intention, but simply "why aren't you using scatter?" vs. "try using scatter in packs" is just the same way to convey the same information. One is a question so the other party can answer while the other is a suggestion. In the end they mean the same thing "scatter is a good spell to use on multiple mobs" with no swearing or harassment present at all.

"Why aren't you using scatter?" falls into that category where it can be easily interpreted as a hostile message.
Some may read it more like - "Why aren't you using scatter you noob?"
The word "Try" just makes the message come across as a much more approachable question.
eg. "Why don't you try using scatter?"

No one is going to want to bother trying to help anyone else in this community if they need to walk on eggshells and make sure they write the most perfect sentence to make sure the other person doesn't get pissed off. I mean why do people think it is okay to verbally harass someone for asking a simple question of making a simple statement is beyond me anyway, but I see it happen too often.

The problem with trying to help others in this game isn't how people word things. The problem is people getting defensive over nothing.

It really isn't hard to phrase a sentence in a more polite manner. Simple words can often lead the phrase open to far too much interpretation.
They verbally harass someone because their interpretation of the statement is that the advice giver is being hostile toward them. So they jump on the defense.

However yes, I will agree with your bolded statement. A big part of the issue is definitely the fact that some people are just not good at taking criticism regardless of tone. However this falls into real life as well.. Those same people likely won't take feedback very well even if it was extremely polite. It's just the way some people are wired - so you do practically have to walk on eggshells sometimes, and this isn't just in-game but real life as well.

That is why I basically stopped offering advice or trying to help people very much anymore. I just get sh** on for it no matter how nice I try to word it.

I can't agree with this at all. I personally very rarely get harassed for giving someone advice. In saying that, I am not saying I am an amazing or perfect person to give advice.. However people are a lot more receptive when you word it nicely.
The general responses I get are either:
- no response, and no change in their actions.
- no response, but a change in their actions.
- a yes, and a change in their actions.

I've been told to "f*** off" more times I can count, I've been called elitist, I've been called a "c***". I mean these kind of responses you'd think I said something really horrible to them right? Nope. It is usually something like "Hey X, ______ is/are great spells/abilities you should try using them sometimes and it will help your rotation and damage" or heck before stormblood one time I got a nasty response like that for just reminding a NIN they forgot their poison buff.

Never once have I been sworn at for giving advice.. And I actually do it fairly often. The most common two sentences I find myself saying at the moment are-
On healer - "Hey xxxx, do you mind rotating your cooldowns for me so I can contribute to DPS?"
On anything - "Hey xxxx, do you mind using your AoE skills on packs of 4 or more mobs?"

An even better way to go about it is to say in in a general sense, rather than pick one person out..
"Hey guys..." instead of "Hey person..."
Unfortunately this isn't possible when it's role specific..

I don't think how I worded it is the problem, nor did I deserve that verbal abuse for simple questions or suggestions. People are too defensive and your post, Skivvy, kind of highlights part of the problem. Tone doesn't exist in text.

PS. I am not saying you do anything like this Skivvy, after the first paragraph the "you" are pretty much "general you" not towards you personally. Just branched off your post to explain why wording things isn't the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that you are a rubbish advice giver or anything :P
I am just pointing out that from my experience, getting harassed for offering advice is extremely rare.. Generally if someone doesn't want it, they just don't say anything and carry on with what they are doing.

On a final note.. I generally don't like giving advice in a question format..
Saying something like..
"Why don't you...." or "Why aren't you...." can come across as confrontational.
On the flip side..
"You should try..." can sound a lot more polite.

[Miste]

"Why aren't you using scatter?" falls into that category where it can be easily interpreted as a hostile message.
Some may read it more like - "Why aren't you using scatter you noob?"

That is actually the same problem I just pointed out. The original question did not have the word "noob" in it, the person just tacked it on in their mind and then blames the person asking the question for something they didn't even say. The question is only hostile if you make it hostile which adding "noob" at the end does, but thing is the person who asked didn't even say "noob".

It really isn't hard to phrase a sentence in a more polite manner. Simple words can often lead the phrase open to far too much interpretation.
They verbally harass someone because their interpretation of the statement is that the advice giver is being hostile toward them. So they jump on the defense.

I am not saying it is hard, but people aren't perfect we might not word things absolutely the best all the time even if our intentions are completely amiable and nice. That's why a lot of people don't want to deal with helping others with walking on eggshells. Not all people are native English speakers either so they might not know our language as well or different ways to word things....should people immediately condemn them for anything they might type even if their intentions are innocent and just trying to help, but they just might not know a better way to word what they are saying?

I mean maybe I have more insight into this than some others having known someone where you literally had to be scanning and searching and preparing everything you say ahead of time because they might get mad and decide to slap you across the face for it.

It's nerve racking, it's stifling, and it is somewhat the same problem as having to search and scan and carefully prepare everything you type in-game for fear you'll piss someone off. I don't consider that a good time, you know, worrying every time you want to type something that you are going to upset someone even though your intentions are completely innocent.

This is supposed to be a social game, but I've gotten to the point where deciding to type anything in DF is a risk I am not going to bother taking much anymore because people just make up their own interpretation or tone in their mind about what I typed and then lash out at me instead of just asking me civilly to clarify what I was asking or saying to them.

Are you condoning verbal harassment towards someone just because they asked a question? I mean I hope not, but I am asking because I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. There is no excuse for harassment no matter how the question was worded (of course minus harassment, name calling, or insults on the question askers end)

My whole post was mostly about that you shouldn't verbally harass someone for just asking a question. You shouldn't interpret it in your own mind and make assumptions about the other person's intentions without knowing any facts. If someone asks you a question and you are unsure of their intentions you can simply ask a question back to judge the situation better instead of immediately getting defensive.

The assumptions are causing people to treat innocent people like garbage just because they happen to ask a question or try to offer help.

I can't agree with this at all. I personally very rarely get harassed for giving someone advice.
Never once have I been sworn at for giving advice..
I am just pointing out that from my experience, getting harassed for offering advice is extremely rare.. Generally if someone doesn't want it, they just don't say anything and carry on with what they are doing.

If you don't agree that's fine; I wasn't asking for validation on my experiences because they are only my experiences. Your experiences are obviously yours, but it isn't my experience and I word things very nicely and similar to you. I never said I don't ever get any good response at all, I do sometimes, but the bad times sure do stick out badly and of course I get the ignore-it-all people as well.

So either you've been very lucky, or I've been very unlucky, whichever you want to pick. Just because you haven't been harassed doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that I am doing something severely wrong with how I type things. In your experience it is rare, in mine it isn't rare. There isn't much to discuss about this particular part of my post since it is all personal experiences. It still points out why people shouldn't throw down the gavel and yell "guilty" just because someone posed a simply worded question or suggestion.

[Altena]

That is actually the same problem I just pointed out. The original question did not have the word "noob" in it, the person just tacked it on in their mind and then blames the person asking the question for something they didn't even say. The question is only hostile if you make it hostile which adding "noob" at the end does, but thing is the person who asked didn't even say "noob".

That is indeed the point. The idea / goal is to reduce the number of ways someone can interpret something. You often have to make your sentence rather flamboyant over text to get the message across that you're not trying to be an arsehat. This isn't really walking on eggshells, as it's just making your intentions a lot clearer.


I see plenty of times where people ask something like "Why aren't you using Scatter?" in a purely derogatory manner, where they are actually attempting to put someone down rather than offer advice. I can totally understand why some would see a sentence like that alone and believe that someone is trying to get on their back about what they are/aren't doing.

I am not saying it is hard, but people aren't perfect we might not word things absolutely the best all the time even if our intentions are completely amiable and nice. That's why a lot of people don't want to deal with helping others with walking on eggshells. Not all people are native English speakers either so they might not know our language as well or different ways to word things....should people immediately condemn them for anything they might type even if their intentions are innocent and just trying to help, but they just might not know a better way to word what they are saying?

Honestly there are far fewer non-native EN speakers than there are EN speakers on the NA datacentre. Easier to just assume they are. You can only do so much.
Again, you can't really control the way people react just by expecting a certain reaction. You (the general you) can harp on about what people should/shouldn't do, or how they should act but it isn't really going to change much. The only way to change it is if you make actions toward your own behaviour - and this case that is putting a bit of extra effort into how you word the advice you want to give.

I mean maybe I have more insight into this than some others having known someone where you literally had to be scanning and searching and preparing everything you say ahead of time because they might get mad and decide to slap you across the face for it.

I don't mean to be forward here however I think everyone has known someone like that. Especially considering the current rising generation have been known to be easily offended. Just have to adapt and accept that some people take things much harsher than others, especially on the internet where all tone and body language is lost - and you're relying solely on the phrase of the language.

It's nerve racking, it's stifling, and it is somewhat the same problem as having to search and scan and carefully prepare everything you type in-game for fear you'll piss someone off. I don't consider that a good time, you know, worrying every time you want to type something that you are going to upset someone even though your intentions are completely innocent.

This is supposed to be a social game, but I've gotten to the point where deciding to type anything in DF is a risk I am not going to bother taking much anymore because people just make up their own interpretation or tone in their mind about what I typed and then lash out at me instead of just asking me civilly to clarify what I was asking or saying to them.

Well I mean you have to get used to it - because this crosses over into life as well. I work as a paramedic and it's absolutely difficult to find correct words to use in many situations. It's just the way it is.

I mean there is nothing wrong with not offering advice. You absolutely have no obligation to. If you are constantly getting bad reactions and you're feeling uncomfortable then just stop. The OP's question was how to approach the situation where they want to give advice but are afraid to due to people taking it the wrong way. "Don't give advice" isn't a very good answer to that question in my eyes.

Are you condoning verbal harassment towards someone just because they asked a question? I mean I hope not, but I am asking because I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. There is no excuse for harassment no matter how the question was worded (of course minus harassment, name calling, or insults on the question askers end)

Absolutely not. I am just pointing out that a big part of the fault here is the messenger. You can't reduce harassment by saying "stop harassing people that are giving advice". That just won't work. However you can reduce it by giving advice that isn't so blunt or phrased in a way that is open to too much interpretation. Sure, some people will just go off their head at anything that remotely hints at them not playing well - however that's just part of it. The idea is to reduce as much of the possibility that they take it as harsh criticism.

My whole post was mostly about that you shouldn't verbally harass someone for just asking a question. You shouldn't interpret it in your own mind and make assumptions about the other person's intentions without knowing any facts. If someone asks you a question and you are unsure of their intentions you can simply ask a question back to judge the situation better instead of immediately getting defensive.

The assumptions are causing people to treat innocent people like garbage just because they happen to ask a question or try to offer help.

I mean as I said above.. It's easy to spread your own personal values and ideals, however it's unlikely that it will stick.
Sure, people shouldn't verbally harass anyone - for any reason.
However you can't control the fact that a large portion of the world's population have a short fuse, and cannot take negative feedback.
A big part of teaching is to learn how to deliver feedback that won't come across as a hostile offense.

Just remember that if players do indeed need advice - then they have likely run into angry kiddos that have blown up at them. It's easy for them to interpret helpful tips as an aggression - so they respond in kind.

If you don't agree that's fine; I wasn't asking for validation on my experiences because they are only my experiences. Your experiences are obviously yours, but it isn't my experience and I word things very nicely and similar to you. I never said I don't ever get any good response at all, I do sometimes, but the bad times sure do stick out badly and of course I get the ignore-it-all people as well.

It still points out why people shouldn't throw down the gavel and yell "guilty" just because someone posed a simply worded question or suggestion.

Not discounting your experience. Just stating my own.
Everyone remembers the negative sooner than the positive. Easiest way to take it is once the harassment starts to come out, just brush it off and ignore it.

As for your last sentence, I am by no means saying that..
I am simply saying that the way you word your advice is absolutely important in getting the best response you can - because you don't know the personality of the other person.
Your original post had the general tone that the way you word it didn't matter and it was all on the interpretation, which I definitely can't agree with.
Saying "Use xxxx skill" is very different to the receiver of the message as saying "You should use xxx skill because of xxx reason".

You get a negative response on the latter? Sure, sometimes. However you get a more positive response a lot more often than you do if you start throwing out phrases that sound like demands rather than advice.

The point I am trying to defend is that harassment should never be okay. I am saying that someone who may pose a question like that might be completely innocent and not intending to upset anyone. So maybe people should not harass someone for that simple question. I mean I can put out a scenario I suppose to try to help you understand what I am trying to say.

I don't think you need to defend that point to anyone. No one should have the idea that harassment is ok.

The point we are making is that text on the internet can be interpreted in different ways, and it's no surprise that the people that are receiving the advice are on the defensive when these phrases can be taken in an offensive manner.

It's up to the messenger to reduce as much of the ability to interpret the phrase as possible. Especially when speaking to a person you don't know.

Crying out saying "people shouldn't be harassing others for xxxx reason" isn't going to reduce harassment. You can only control what you do, and the way to reduce negative responses when you give advice is to change the delivery of said advice. If they still spout rubbish at you, then just backpedal out of that situation and say "Sorry, never mind. Don't worry about it" or say nothing and ignore it.

[Miste]

I am simply saying that the way you word your advice is absolutely important in getting the best response you can - because you don't know the personality of the other person.
Your original post had the general tone that the way you word it didn't matter and it was all on the interpretation, which I definitely can't agree with.

I disagree that wording is the problem. I feel the problem is the players who get defensive at the drop of a hat, because I've tried every which way to word things as best as I am capable of and it still gets me insulted as a result half the time. So I never said I don't try to reduce the chances of someone misinterpreting my intentions, but my issue is it doesn't seem to matter even if I do.

Even using smiley faces more than once someone accused me of being condescending. Not sure how much more I can sugar coat everything beyond spamming heart symbols maybe... I haven't tried going quite that far yet.

The fact that you can word something perfectly and still get harassed as a result basically shows that wording things isn't the problem. The problem is how others deal with someone asking them something or making a suggestion. Some are too defensive where anything you say ends up getting them pissed at you. I am not saying this is what happens all the time, but in general someone open to advice or questions wouldn't care if you worded it one way or added smiley faces they would still be okay with it.

If someone isn't ok with your advice or questions they have options. Either they can ignore you or they can politely respond "Thanks, but I want to figure it out on my own" (sadly I've never seen this response ever). Instead I've gotten a lot of insults when all they had to do was tell me that one sentence and I would have been like "sure np".

So yes I am advocating that people think before getting defensive over something simple like a question and that if they are unsure of the other player's intentions they can simply ask for clarification. I mean I understand you think it is useless to try to spread this ideal, but I was just trying to explain how this community could end up a nicer place overall. People advocate for a better world all the time so why not? It doesn't always accomplish anything but people still do it.

I don't think you need to defend that point to anyone. No one should have the idea that harassment is ok.

Well some people really don't care. I mean I had a O3N run earlier where one of the DPS kept calling the healers "stupid" and "bad" over and over and making fun of them for every mistake he saw them make. So in a perfect world you would hope you don't have to defend that point, but sadly it isn't.

PS. I wasn't telling OP not to give advice, I was explaining why wording isn't the main problem when it comes to how other players react to what you say (again minus if said person is using rude language themselves), and saying that harassing someone simply for asking a question is silly no matter if they used "this wording" or "that wording", and shared my personal experience on it and how I rarely give advice anymore because of people reacting badly so often even to nicely worded suggestions. It is better that people know this can happen instead of going into mentorland and expecting things to be all rainbows and sunshine. You can get people who will verbally harass and insult you for trying to help them no matter if your intentions were completely innocent and no matter how well you word your help.