Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

[TaleraRistain]

People should not be getting defensive over simple words. There is literally no difference between those two sentences. You just made up a difference in your mind and there is a simple way that I know this. There is no "tone" in text on a screen and so many people fail to realize this. You are attaching your own tone to it when it may not be the same or intended tone of the person who wrote it, but in-game being text only you won't know their tone so you need to be neutral.

It is possible to inject tone into a sentence with word choice. Look up a few posts at Vandril's. There are good examples and explanations how this is possible in that post.

[Altena]

I'm sorry, but Mavrias has a good point.

People should not be getting defensive over simple words. There is literally no difference between those two sentences. You just made up a difference in your mind and there is a simple way that I know this. There is no "tone" in text on a screen and so many people fail to realize this. You are attaching your own tone to it when it may not be the same or intended tone of the person who wrote it, but in-game being text only you won't know their tone so you need to be neutral.

All nice in theory, however there are certainly phrases that sound more polite / less aggressive through text. Reducing the number of ways someone can interpret something is the most ideal way to go.. Even if it takes a few extra words to say it in a particular tone, it can make all the difference.. You can say "people should take things from a neutral ground", however that doesn't solve the issue that many (if not most) just won't.

90% of the way someone interprets a message is based on the wording of the message.. If you just say "Use xxxxx skill" it can come across in so many different perspectives..
Saying something like "You should try to use xxxx skill because of xxxx reason", it reduces the number of ways the message can be interpreted. Many would see the former as a demand, whereas the latter would be taken more as a small helpful tip.

When you read something someone else has written you should take it at face value and not add an imaginary tone to it in your mind. This would cause you to not only be more relaxed, but also to not treat someone else like crap for no reason because you mislabeled their intentions. Assumptions are bad. They might have had a happy tone or a neutral tone, but you condemn them without even knowing.

If the person chatting used rude language then you obviously can tell their intention, but simply "why aren't you using scatter?" vs. "try using scatter in packs" is just the same way to convey the same information. One is a question so the other party can answer while the other is a suggestion. In the end they mean the same thing "scatter is a good spell to use on multiple mobs" with no swearing or harassment present at all.

"Why aren't you using scatter?" falls into that category where it can be easily interpreted as a hostile message.
Some may read it more like - "Why aren't you using scatter you noob?"
The word "Try" just makes the message come across as a much more approachable question.
eg. "Why don't you try using scatter?"

No one is going to want to bother trying to help anyone else in this community if they need to walk on eggshells and make sure they write the most perfect sentence to make sure the other person doesn't get pissed off. I mean why do people think it is okay to verbally harass someone for asking a simple question of making a simple statement is beyond me anyway, but I see it happen too often.

The problem with trying to help others in this game isn't how people word things. The problem is people getting defensive over nothing.

It really isn't hard to phrase a sentence in a more polite manner. Simple words can often lead the phrase open to far too much interpretation.
They verbally harass someone because their interpretation of the statement is that the advice giver is being hostile toward them. So they jump on the defense.

However yes, I will agree with your bolded statement. A big part of the issue is definitely the fact that some people are just not good at taking criticism regardless of tone. However this falls into real life as well.. Those same people likely won't take feedback very well even if it was extremely polite. It's just the way some people are wired - so you do practically have to walk on eggshells sometimes, and this isn't just in-game but real life as well.

That is why I basically stopped offering advice or trying to help people very much anymore. I just get sh** on for it no matter how nice I try to word it.

I can't agree with this at all. I personally very rarely get harassed for giving someone advice. In saying that, I am not saying I am an amazing or perfect person to give advice.. However people are a lot more receptive when you word it nicely.
The general responses I get are either:
- no response, and no change in their actions.
- no response, but a change in their actions.
- a yes, and a change in their actions.

I've been told to "f*** off" more times I can count, I've been called elitist, I've been called a "c***". I mean these kind of responses you'd think I said something really horrible to them right? Nope. It is usually something like "Hey X, ______ is/are great spells/abilities you should try using them sometimes and it will help your rotation and damage" or heck before stormblood one time I got a nasty response like that for just reminding a NIN they forgot their poison buff.

Never once have I been sworn at for giving advice.. And I actually do it fairly often. The most common two sentences I find myself saying at the moment are-
On healer - "Hey xxxx, do you mind rotating your cooldowns for me so I can contribute to DPS?"
On anything - "Hey xxxx, do you mind using your AoE skills on packs of 4 or more mobs?"

An even better way to go about it is to say in in a general sense, rather than pick one person out..
"Hey guys..." instead of "Hey person..."
Unfortunately this isn't possible when it's role specific..

I don't think how I worded it is the problem, nor did I deserve that verbal abuse for simple questions or suggestions. People are too defensive and your post, Skivvy, kind of highlights part of the problem. Tone doesn't exist in text.

PS. I am not saying you do anything like this Skivvy, after the first paragraph the "you" are pretty much "general you" not towards you personally. Just branched off your post to explain why wording things isn't the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that you are a rubbish advice giver or anything :P
I am just pointing out that from my experience, getting harassed for offering advice is extremely rare.. Generally if someone doesn't want it, they just don't say anything and carry on with what they are doing.

On a final note.. I generally don't like giving advice in a question format..
Saying something like..
"Why don't you...." or "Why aren't you...." can come across as confrontational.
On the flip side..
"You should try..." can sound a lot more polite.

[Cold_Raven]

I don't think you should have to word things like you're speaking to a small child just to tell someone that there's a better way they should be doing things.

Although I agree with your idea (below), I don't agree with this phrase.
I'm not sure exactly how you're using it, but in general such a phrase is tossed about whenever someone wants to defend being a jerk.
And the answer is always the same - yes, you do have to be nice to everyone all the time. You don't get "time off" from being nice so you can be jerk "just this once."

I don't think that's how you meant it, because it doesn't jive quite with the next thing you say.
So I don't mean that as a reprimand with you... just wanted to vent my general distaste for that particular statement

I'm not advocating cursing someone out, but, "why aren't you using X?" is a perfectly valid question. Instead of getting all defensive that person should instead be thinking "Oh, I should be using that ability, then?" or maybe explain their thought process to the rest of the class.

With this, I completely agree.
I think saying "why aren't you using X?" is being nice.

Of course, it's quite easy for the rest of the conversation-from-here to either "stay nice" or become a jerk.
Just stay nice. All the time. To everyone. No one, ever, gets a free pass to be a jerk.

[Mavrias]

I'm not sure exactly how you're using it, but in general such a phrase is tossed about whenever someone wants to defend being a jerk.
And the answer is always the same - yes, you do have to be nice to everyone all the time. You don't get "time off" from being nice so you can be jerk "just this once."

I don't think that's how you meant it, because it doesn't jive quite with the next thing you say.

I was particularly referring to the sentiment that some people seem to have that if you're not being particularly chipper or going out of your way to phrase things like what someone is doing isn't wrong.

You don't have to phrase everything that way to be polite. A blank statement of "use this" or "you should be using this" is not rude just because it doesn't have a lot of extra sugar added to it. That's just something I've been irritated with lately.

[Cold_Raven]

But its still just no excuse to me , for a player to be wearing a level 23 ring in a level 50 dungeon.

Just remember that your advice may not always be the best answer.

You are free to give your advice, but you should know when to stop forcing something if someone just has another (acceptable) way to do it.

For this ring example, it could go something like this:

"Hey, did you know you have a low level ring equipped?"
"Yeah, I'll get another for free eventually in the dungeons, so I'm good with it."

...this is an acceptable answer.
It may not be optimal as far as DPS for that dungeon goes, and it may not be to your liking... but, really, it's hardly affecting the party at all and isn't that big of a deal and they're aware of it and they're solution is also acceptable.

So there's no reason to kick anyone here, just roll your eyes (not in text chat... ) and finish the dungeon.

Of course, if they get all mad and insult you back or something... then feel free (and rightful) to kick them.

The situation can be different as well...
In doing leveling dungeons from 50-to-60+... you'll reach a point where you finish the 59 dungeon and can queue for the 61 dungeon without upgrading your gear.
Again, it's true they could say "well, I'll pick up the gear from leveling dungeons again anyway, so I'm good..." as a defense, but this is not acceptable in this situation.

In this situation, the gear difference from 59-to-61 (the entire HW expansion) is so great that the player is a huge detriment to the party. In this situation it's quite acceptable to explain how they can get better gear (Poetics tomes in Idylshire or 60 dungeons) and prolong the discussion. Hopefully they'll say something like "oh, really? I'll look into that as soon as I'm done!" and you won't have to kick them. But kicking them in this situation is much more reasonable than kicking someone using a 36-ring in a 50-dungeon.

TL/DR - It's all situational, just think before you kick or assume you're right.

[ManuelBravo]

I would suggest if your mentoring and perhaps start wiping, ask them if they would like tips. Or give some kind of notice, example: "Just a tip: I notice that .... perhaps you may want to ..."

Also Mentors shouldn't take things personal, sometimes we have to take the lead if the party is falling a part. Be open to suggestions and remind them your not trying to put them down, just trying to complete the task at hand.

[ElHeggunte]

I don't see anything wrong with asking "why aren't you using scatter". I'm not trying to be accusatory, I literally want to know why they aren't using it. Knowing their reasoning makes it easier to explain why they should be doing it a different way. Like asking a MNK why he isn't using Rockbreaker on big trash packs, and when he answers "the potency numbers are bigger on my other skills" you can explain how in spite of the AoE skill having lower potency it still equates to more damage overall because you're hitting so many targets at once.

Or I guess you can cut out the middleman by asking and explaining all at once: "Why aren't you using Scatter? Even though it has low potency, you still do more overall damage than [X Spell] because you're hitting so many targets at once". Done. Tell them what to do and why, don't make it a passing suggestion without giving them a reason as to why they should listen. If they want to get indignant for someone asking a perfectly innocuous question, that's their problem.

[Saiah]

"Why aren't you using Scatter? Even though it has low potency, you still do more overall damage than [X Spell] because you're hitting so many targets at once"

Did you just mansplain me?

[ElHeggunte]

Did you just mansplain me?

No.


(•_•)

( •_•)>⌐■-■


I Miqo'splain you.

(⌐■_■)

[TaleraRistain]

What I've found to be the most important factor is keeping the control in their hands. I will let people know I am there through roulette and happy to assist or offer advice on anything they desire, even being willing to stick around after the fight for it. But I never offer anything unsolicited. It's very easy in text for that to come across the wrong way, even a polite request like "Would you like some advice on X?" So the best thing to do is just put yourself out there and let them come to you if they want to.