Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

[Altena]

That is actually the same problem I just pointed out. The original question did not have the word "noob" in it, the person just tacked it on in their mind and then blames the person asking the question for something they didn't even say. The question is only hostile if you make it hostile which adding "noob" at the end does, but thing is the person who asked didn't even say "noob".

That is indeed the point. The idea / goal is to reduce the number of ways someone can interpret something. You often have to make your sentence rather flamboyant over text to get the message across that you're not trying to be an arsehat. This isn't really walking on eggshells, as it's just making your intentions a lot clearer.


I see plenty of times where people ask something like "Why aren't you using Scatter?" in a purely derogatory manner, where they are actually attempting to put someone down rather than offer advice. I can totally understand why some would see a sentence like that alone and believe that someone is trying to get on their back about what they are/aren't doing.

I am not saying it is hard, but people aren't perfect we might not word things absolutely the best all the time even if our intentions are completely amiable and nice. That's why a lot of people don't want to deal with helping others with walking on eggshells. Not all people are native English speakers either so they might not know our language as well or different ways to word things....should people immediately condemn them for anything they might type even if their intentions are innocent and just trying to help, but they just might not know a better way to word what they are saying?

Honestly there are far fewer non-native EN speakers than there are EN speakers on the NA datacentre. Easier to just assume they are. You can only do so much.
Again, you can't really control the way people react just by expecting a certain reaction. You (the general you) can harp on about what people should/shouldn't do, or how they should act but it isn't really going to change much. The only way to change it is if you make actions toward your own behaviour - and this case that is putting a bit of extra effort into how you word the advice you want to give.

I mean maybe I have more insight into this than some others having known someone where you literally had to be scanning and searching and preparing everything you say ahead of time because they might get mad and decide to slap you across the face for it.

I don't mean to be forward here however I think everyone has known someone like that. Especially considering the current rising generation have been known to be easily offended. Just have to adapt and accept that some people take things much harsher than others, especially on the internet where all tone and body language is lost - and you're relying solely on the phrase of the language.

It's nerve racking, it's stifling, and it is somewhat the same problem as having to search and scan and carefully prepare everything you type in-game for fear you'll piss someone off. I don't consider that a good time, you know, worrying every time you want to type something that you are going to upset someone even though your intentions are completely innocent.

This is supposed to be a social game, but I've gotten to the point where deciding to type anything in DF is a risk I am not going to bother taking much anymore because people just make up their own interpretation or tone in their mind about what I typed and then lash out at me instead of just asking me civilly to clarify what I was asking or saying to them.

Well I mean you have to get used to it - because this crosses over into life as well. I work as a paramedic and it's absolutely difficult to find correct words to use in many situations. It's just the way it is.

I mean there is nothing wrong with not offering advice. You absolutely have no obligation to. If you are constantly getting bad reactions and you're feeling uncomfortable then just stop. The OP's question was how to approach the situation where they want to give advice but are afraid to due to people taking it the wrong way. "Don't give advice" isn't a very good answer to that question in my eyes.

Are you condoning verbal harassment towards someone just because they asked a question? I mean I hope not, but I am asking because I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. There is no excuse for harassment no matter how the question was worded (of course minus harassment, name calling, or insults on the question askers end)

Absolutely not. I am just pointing out that a big part of the fault here is the messenger. You can't reduce harassment by saying "stop harassing people that are giving advice". That just won't work. However you can reduce it by giving advice that isn't so blunt or phrased in a way that is open to too much interpretation. Sure, some people will just go off their head at anything that remotely hints at them not playing well - however that's just part of it. The idea is to reduce as much of the possibility that they take it as harsh criticism.

My whole post was mostly about that you shouldn't verbally harass someone for just asking a question. You shouldn't interpret it in your own mind and make assumptions about the other person's intentions without knowing any facts. If someone asks you a question and you are unsure of their intentions you can simply ask a question back to judge the situation better instead of immediately getting defensive.

The assumptions are causing people to treat innocent people like garbage just because they happen to ask a question or try to offer help.

I mean as I said above.. It's easy to spread your own personal values and ideals, however it's unlikely that it will stick.
Sure, people shouldn't verbally harass anyone - for any reason.
However you can't control the fact that a large portion of the world's population have a short fuse, and cannot take negative feedback.
A big part of teaching is to learn how to deliver feedback that won't come across as a hostile offense.

Just remember that if players do indeed need advice - then they have likely run into angry kiddos that have blown up at them. It's easy for them to interpret helpful tips as an aggression - so they respond in kind.

If you don't agree that's fine; I wasn't asking for validation on my experiences because they are only my experiences. Your experiences are obviously yours, but it isn't my experience and I word things very nicely and similar to you. I never said I don't ever get any good response at all, I do sometimes, but the bad times sure do stick out badly and of course I get the ignore-it-all people as well.

It still points out why people shouldn't throw down the gavel and yell "guilty" just because someone posed a simply worded question or suggestion.

Not discounting your experience. Just stating my own.
Everyone remembers the negative sooner than the positive. Easiest way to take it is once the harassment starts to come out, just brush it off and ignore it.

As for your last sentence, I am by no means saying that..
I am simply saying that the way you word your advice is absolutely important in getting the best response you can - because you don't know the personality of the other person.
Your original post had the general tone that the way you word it didn't matter and it was all on the interpretation, which I definitely can't agree with.
Saying "Use xxxx skill" is very different to the receiver of the message as saying "You should use xxx skill because of xxx reason".

You get a negative response on the latter? Sure, sometimes. However you get a more positive response a lot more often than you do if you start throwing out phrases that sound like demands rather than advice.

The point I am trying to defend is that harassment should never be okay. I am saying that someone who may pose a question like that might be completely innocent and not intending to upset anyone. So maybe people should not harass someone for that simple question. I mean I can put out a scenario I suppose to try to help you understand what I am trying to say.

I don't think you need to defend that point to anyone. No one should have the idea that harassment is ok.

The point we are making is that text on the internet can be interpreted in different ways, and it's no surprise that the people that are receiving the advice are on the defensive when these phrases can be taken in an offensive manner.

It's up to the messenger to reduce as much of the ability to interpret the phrase as possible. Especially when speaking to a person you don't know.

Crying out saying "people shouldn't be harassing others for xxxx reason" isn't going to reduce harassment. You can only control what you do, and the way to reduce negative responses when you give advice is to change the delivery of said advice. If they still spout rubbish at you, then just backpedal out of that situation and say "Sorry, never mind. Don't worry about it" or say nothing and ignore it.

[Miste]

I am simply saying that the way you word your advice is absolutely important in getting the best response you can - because you don't know the personality of the other person.
Your original post had the general tone that the way you word it didn't matter and it was all on the interpretation, which I definitely can't agree with.

I disagree that wording is the problem. I feel the problem is the players who get defensive at the drop of a hat, because I've tried every which way to word things as best as I am capable of and it still gets me insulted as a result half the time. So I never said I don't try to reduce the chances of someone misinterpreting my intentions, but my issue is it doesn't seem to matter even if I do.

Even using smiley faces more than once someone accused me of being condescending. Not sure how much more I can sugar coat everything beyond spamming heart symbols maybe... I haven't tried going quite that far yet.

The fact that you can word something perfectly and still get harassed as a result basically shows that wording things isn't the problem. The problem is how others deal with someone asking them something or making a suggestion. Some are too defensive where anything you say ends up getting them pissed at you. I am not saying this is what happens all the time, but in general someone open to advice or questions wouldn't care if you worded it one way or added smiley faces they would still be okay with it.

If someone isn't ok with your advice or questions they have options. Either they can ignore you or they can politely respond "Thanks, but I want to figure it out on my own" (sadly I've never seen this response ever). Instead I've gotten a lot of insults when all they had to do was tell me that one sentence and I would have been like "sure np".

So yes I am advocating that people think before getting defensive over something simple like a question and that if they are unsure of the other player's intentions they can simply ask for clarification. I mean I understand you think it is useless to try to spread this ideal, but I was just trying to explain how this community could end up a nicer place overall. People advocate for a better world all the time so why not? It doesn't always accomplish anything but people still do it.

I don't think you need to defend that point to anyone. No one should have the idea that harassment is ok.

Well some people really don't care. I mean I had a O3N run earlier where one of the DPS kept calling the healers "stupid" and "bad" over and over and making fun of them for every mistake he saw them make. So in a perfect world you would hope you don't have to defend that point, but sadly it isn't.

PS. I wasn't telling OP not to give advice, I was explaining why wording isn't the main problem when it comes to how other players react to what you say (again minus if said person is using rude language themselves), and saying that harassing someone simply for asking a question is silly no matter if they used "this wording" or "that wording", and shared my personal experience on it and how I rarely give advice anymore because of people reacting badly so often even to nicely worded suggestions. It is better that people know this can happen instead of going into mentorland and expecting things to be all rainbows and sunshine. You can get people who will verbally harass and insult you for trying to help them no matter if your intentions were completely innocent and no matter how well you word your help.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

From what I'm seeing in this article much of the discussion has been centered on "how to word it". But I will say that it is not the priority at all. Please allow me tell you a personal story.
Warning: Long Post.

My first FC in this game was headed by an ... eccentric, person. Some may call them weird. Some even nasty. But regardless of what others think, I stuck with him. Eventually, I was one of the only people who could communicate with him properly, others would barely be able to understand what he said. It's not that he's bad at words; he understand multiple languages, but English isn't his main. Fortunately, I have experience with multiple languages (more than some other people) and I know what happens to the image of a person, even their perceived unconscious thoughts, when trying to use an unfamiliar language.

But even if he was just a gruff, nonverbal person 'raised by wolves', with all the quirks and disservice that comes with it, he still has a right to play this game. Good people have a right to play this game just as much as someone more deadened perhaps by real life circumstances beyond their control. Smart people have a right to buy this game to entertain themselves just as much as more "straightforward" and "single-minded" people. I know much can be argued about this, but goddamit please try to listen for a second. They are people too. And we live in the same world whether we like it or not. The world's problems are not someone else's problems.

[SPOILER] I stayed with him longer than all the other groups who came and went in our FC. Because I would see to the end of this and make my conclusion for myself. And a conclusion I did make, which was that he's not only no worse at anyone else, than most other people, but possibly better than a lot of "normal" people. I tested him, discreetly, on almost all manners a person could be tested on. And in the simplest way to put it, he's not a bad person. His morals, philosophies, and actual intent and reasoning behind actions are sound, no less sound than any other just or ethical person.

But that does not mean his actions in-game will reflect that. His ... eccentricity and quirks, may get in the way, but never in a way which was run-debilitating. And it only happened a minority of the time. While I cannot defend him on all his actions, he did stop doing the "join duty as conjurer than see if he could heal through that without becoming white mage" thing, about an expansion or two ago. So he does listen.

But another time, there was this tank doing massive pulls so he had to spam non-stop cure 3. Tank blamed him for aggro. Tank under a pile of enemies. He said "tank was bad tank". Tank simply stopped in dungeon. He simply said tank was bad again. Rage ensues. Tank waits out leave timer and leaves. We do adds without a tank. Other tank joins, we finish dungeon just fine. Only reason other dps probably didn't instant leave as well, was because of how I tried to defuse the situation. It was possibly the most stark example of his personality. Textbook case-study scenario? (If they ever make a course for being a mentor, please use this as a case study.) The rest of this paragraph will be a quick description my judgement on this case, skip spoilers if you're not interested in this incident.
[SPOILER] So we have 4 people in a level synced dungeon. Tank is Pal,
healer is my friend, WHM. I am BRD. Other dps is NIN. Looks like a milk run. Tank pulls 3x adds. Healer is getting warmed up. proceeds to spam cure 3. Draws aggro. Has to double heal now. Tank gets perma-hammered, eats aoe and we barely live through that.
Tank pulls 3x on next slope. We run to keep up. Healer can't heal efficiently while running. Tank dies. Wipe and adds chase us all the way to entrance. We res and do do it slowly until reach first boss. Healer says tank is bad. Tank refutes. Healer says it again. Healer keeps saying it. Rest is history. [/SPOILER]
[SPOILER] What I perceived from this particular incident, is that what he was trying to say was probably that tank was bad because tank didn't know to ask if big pull was ok first before doing big pulls, didn't adjust his pulls after seeing healer struggle, showed negative emotion and attitude after feedback (despite feedback also being ... prickly), and bossily afk'd then left dungeon even after at least one other person tried to theoretically side with him in an attempt to salvage the run. Healer agreed he did not express intentions clearly, and did not heal to his best extent for the whole duration. (He healed much better for the rest of the run). I agreed that although what he said was technically accurate (tank was "bad" tank), but he was also "bad" healer, he shouldn't have said it that way, but on the other hand there was no obligation for him to "explain" every little point on why the tank was "bad" and attempt to salvage the run. But weirdly, I couldn't even tell if he was genuinely angry during or at that encounter. I myself would have been, in his place, but I generally don't put myself into situations like that, and I know that there have been others in his situation but chose not to get "angry". His philosophy may have been a bit different from me too, in that even if he was in a situation like that, he thinks he generally did not have an "obligation" to explain to other people "obvious" things. And how from what he perceived, tanks think they are "entitled" to support from the rest of the party, because the queue is dependent on them, the run is dependent on them, and they are the "boss", this perception may have also unconsciously affected his already questionable social skills.[/SPOILER]

But I agreed with him ... and perhaps for that, I was unconsciously biased in my judgement, and was slightly empathetic, leaning towards him as a friend, too. That he may be "different", but only so. Yet he did not have an obligation to pander for other's favor. Nor was it fine for others to discriminate. And if there was a problem, I would step in and explain for him, or defend him if need be. But secretly, maybe I just hoped he wouldn't stir up trouble with others, for others, again. But somehow, I was not too worried about the latter point, because I had reached my conclusion, and I would trust him to not do it on ill will. So I left him be, and to this day he enjoys his quiet corner running a newcomer friendly FC, and offers help, "if need help, just ask", to not just me, but as an officially open stance as well. And he has yet to let me down on that claim. You wouldn't expect that from someone who repeatedly tells a tank in a dungeon "You are a bad tank", eh, after just letting tank die as a healer. You'd just report and kick them for harassment. But then again, who knew what negative circumstances affected the tank that day, too ... well, one can't save everyone. [/SPOILER]

When I was very young, I once had this 'friend' who would call me 'Hitler'. He was possibly autistic or something. At any rate, this person was quite visibly and unquestionably ... different. Tall, lanky, visibly different in not just mannerisms, but in a way that you could see it from a mile away he was not very sound in mind. He once spit on me too, with all symbolic mannerisms of disdain, too. While others would respond with something like a punch, we walked home together. And we did it again. Eventually I never saw him again, and in our society one can only guess what happened to him ... but he left me with two precious things. One was that I realized, from being called Hitler, is that "you know what, he's right". And keeping that in mind has possibly prevented me from actually becoming anything resembling Hitler. Secondly, the time with him was the first of many uses of the ability to communicate with, deal with, and cope with many undesirable and "different" people both in my academics, business, and life. And this ability to empathize and communicate with even "weird" people, even "bad" people, even "unsafe" people, even just for business, has been helpful and quite justly so, in my own business, in staying smart, and staying safe. And latest, in trying to get a point across in a mentoring system of a game.

[This paragraph is TL;DR]
And that point is, if you haven't already got the gist of it already, is that the point of helping, nay, communicating in general, isn't about how nicely you put it. It is both much more complex yet much more relevant that that. It's not even about how to best and efficiently help. We hear about debates on how to best "help" refugees, communities, etc. all the time. "Should we give hand-outs, or rule them, or train an educate them, or engage in trade with them, or just kill them all?' But in the core of it is empathy, better knowledge, realization of the world we live in together, and how in the end, there is so much out there, possibly much of which matters, and how so little we have to do, and can do, with that. 'Nicely' is sometimes not even desired. It is but one form of, no not even a form, but a minor detail of the form of the process itself. One does not question whether it is just for SE to think that a "Mentor" system was founded out of business reasons too, and why they don't just get more GMs, and other stuff like that. It's here to stay, it's stance is as much, you can participate in it or not, but what you do would not have been different had there not been a system such as this in the first place. If you were someone who would have helped to begin with, you would help regardless of if you are a mentor or not. One might even be offended to think that this "mentor" system has replaced common respect amongst players, and actual respect, with a 'status title' and a handy chat. Respect is not the same as pandering for favor ... what's for friends without some teasing and poking and jokes? Great art need not be pandering, for instead of your favor, it gains your respect. Getting micro-aggressive over micro-aggression, in a game, is this how far we have gone now? Is this what this game is now? Bickering over how best to put "advice". All I can say is, if it'll happen, it'll happen naturally or not at all. And if you want to play diplomatic games with text-puzzles, those who would actually play something like that with you would have no help in accomplishing your actual goal at all.

So we come back to the starting point now. But with a slightly different perspective now, hopefully. So, are you gonna "offer" your help now, or will you simply be the help? I'm done with this thread. Good luck.

P.S. The "eccentric" guy applied to become a mentor, too. I said good luck to him as well.

[Morzy]

Just give good sugestions and explain why something is a good idea, instead of telling them to do something.

[Darkobra]

NPC vendors are a thing.

Then give them money if you're that concerned. I'm not because it's a faceroll MMO.

Like I said, 4 downscaled 70s can do it. The casual community makes the most money so it makes business sense to make the game this easy for you.

[Mavrias]

Then give them money if you're that concerned. I'm not because it's a faceroll MMO.

Like I said, 4 downscaled 70s can do it. The casual community makes the most money so it makes business sense to make the game this easy for you.

Excusing players with bad gear at level 50 is how you end up with someone at i90 in the Vault or i200 in Bardam's Mettle, is my point. So your indignant defense of those people with level 20-30 accessories in a 50 dungeons makes little sense to me.

[bswpayton]

In a daily dungeon, just stick to what needs to be done as

Im not following your statement, because I disagree I think the mentor system is fine but because you can point out someone with a crown easier people like to talk about it. I very much became a mentor to help new players like I was helped when I started playing, I got alot of help from the nn. My questioning on tips is because people tend to think most mentors do it for the crown, if that was the case why would I be asking for tips in the first place I already have the crown as you say. I really would like to help, and I know that by nature Im not an aggressive or rude person, so id rather try and help as a decent mentor than , one of the more rude ones people can run into in the game. Hence why I said not talkin about amazing rotations and what not , but its still people around that dont just do the basic things on a job.

Im sure its still palidans out there that dont even know total eclipse exist, or that dont that once you hit unleash once or twice on drk you dont have to spam it I use to be one of those drks haha. That its easy to get mp back after using abymsal drain, you can see it all on the screen you can see what skills players are using etc. So if I see a red mage on a 12 add pull doing their single target rotation why not say something to try and help. Aoe is a thing that many people just forget is a thing it seems in this game.

[bswpayton]

Excusing players with bad gear at level 50 is how you end up with someone at i90 in the Vault or i200 in Bardam's Mettle, is my point. So your indignant defense of those people with level 20-30 accessories in a 50 dungeons makes little sense to me.

your exactly right, at 50 you should have a basic understanding of gear, so if someones wearing a level 23 ring at level 50 whos to say they want go into dusk vigil wearing the job specific gear and that same level 23 ring. And dusk vigil hits hard I couldnt image a tank in job specific gear in dusk vigil.

[Vandril]

I don't know who Vandril is

Hello. I believe they were referring to my past post in this thread. In case you're curious, let me go quote myself so you can click for the source instead of searching for it...

As for how to approach people as a source of help, I agree with this thread's general sentiment of being polite. And there are some general tricks in wording that can help avoid triggering people:

I disagree that wording is the problem.

That's exactly it.

You're completely correct on this: the problem isn't wording, it's that people tend to add their own meaning to received messages. Rather, wording is the viable solution. You can't make people take what is said literally or without adding tone to the message. That's what people do; it's how people work. It's part of human psychology. This will not change on a large scale anytime soon. The next best thing - the viable solution - is to reduce ambiguity of given statements as much as possible to minimize the number of negative ways it can be interpreted. And you do this with wording.

I don't believe anyone is trying to say that the problem is that we all need to word our advice perfectly. It seems like a given that the problem is how people take those words. I can't imagine we'd be talking about how to solve a problem that we didn't know existed because we didn't know what the problem was and, instead, confused the solution we came up with to solve the problem we didn't know about before we came up with its solution with the problem itself. o.O

(Yes, that last sentence is very confusing. But that's the twisted logic one would have to follow to be arguing that the solution of wording things in a certain way is the problem.)

Another way to frame this entire situation is in a Problem, Cause, Solution format.

Problem: Players tend to take advice given with good intention as aggressive criticism.
Cause: These players incorrectly interpreted the intention of the advice.
Solution: Careful wording to reduce the ambiguity of the advice's intention.

I think we can all agree with the Problem, Cause, Solution above. As the giver of advice, the only way we effect the situation is by giving our advice, and so the only part of the situation we have control over and can change is our advice itself. Of course, the ideal would be to not have the problem to begin with, but that's simply not the case - we do have the problem and it's cause. All we can do is attempt a solution.

From what I'm seeing in this article much of the discussion has been centered on "how to word it". But I will say that it is not the priority at all.

I respectfully disagree.

[Miste]

That's what people do; it's how people work. It's part of human psychology. This will not change on a large scale anytime soon.

I took some psychology as well so I already know this. It being human nature doesn't mean you cannot advocate or spread the message around that people should not be hostile immediately when confronted with someone making a suggestion or asking them a question. I mean humans are slowly changing and evolving for better or worse so eventually people might come to think differently. So I mean my solution might not be fully obtainable at the moment, but why not advocate it anyway?

I never said your solution isn't a viable one I am just advocating that others also should be nicer and not immediately start harassing someone if posed with a sentence that isn't the best worded possible. So I am confused why you think you need to point that out. There can be two things here not just one.

There is a solution you can try to use which is word things better which I've said I try to do and I use soft words like in your explanation as well (sadly it rarely works for me), but there is also advocating that others should not jump to conclusions and start throwing insults too. I mean these two things can both exist at the same time so I don't understand why argue about it and/or tell me it is pointless to advocate people be nicer to each other?

Solution: Careful wording to reduce the ambiguity of the advice's intention.

In my experience this rarely works anyway unfortunately. That is why I advocate people should just ask the person to clarify their intentions instead of jumping to harassment. Since the solution doesn't really work for me it is natural I might think of some other solution. I mean the way you put it here seems like you believe there is only one solution, but there isn't just one...there are many solutions even if others are not easily obtainable.