Primals - A Discussion on Ethics & Philosophy (ARR & HW Spoilers)

[Shai]

This has been bothering me for a while. There aren't many in my linkshells and Free Company who are tremendously concerned with Lore & Story so I thought I'd finally take my pondering to the forum. I'll open with my underlying question.

Why do we ally ourselves with Ysayle in an attempt to defeat Thordan VII?

Shiva has been a long-time favorite summon of mine. Since FF4 when it was called FF2. Ysayle was my favorite FF14 NPC (replacing Y'shtola before her and being replaced by Sadu who is by far the most epic female FF character yet!) so I have nothing agianst her. I'm just confused because ... when we finally confront Thordan & his Knights, he claims he wants to use his powers to protect the world and turn on the Ascians and defeat them.

There's no doubt that Ysayle had a change of heart and understood her transformation was misguided. There's no doubt that Thordan is a giant douche and his knights arguably even douchier. I guess what bothers me, though, is that even though Ysayle finally comes on board that primals are bad -- it doesn't really stop her from transforming into one whenever the need arises. She uses it to weaken Ravana and in her final assault against the Empire.

It just feels really hypocritical - of us [the Warrior of Light / Scions] - that we're totally OK with Ysayle/Shiva sucking up aether and transforming to help us fight, but we're not ok with Thordan and the Knights doing it to ... fight the same battles (against the Empire & the Ascians). Ysayle is an ally and a hero, but Thordan is a villain.

Anyone care to explain to me what they perceive as the difference? I am perhaps mis-remembering some of the finer details of the HW plot, and of Thordan's ultimate motivation, but as soon as he admitted that he knew the Ascians were using him, but he planned to betray them and destroy them, I thought "Oh, cool. Let's do that. That sounds good." But the game was like "No, Thordan! You're wrong! I have to kill you now!" I just don't understand why it was ok for Shiva to fight for us, but then we have to put down the crazy Archbishop.

Discuss!

[LittleSparrow]

Unrelated to Shiva and Thordan, I never really got why murder in Eorzia is as common as it can be, and not even frowned upon.

Unless it's someone important.

[LittleSparrow]

I agree though. The whole Shiva and Thordan thing is a major double standard.

[Mysterysword]

It's funny, but Alphinaud, in-story, once addressed this issue. I'm not sure exactly where he said it - perhaps to Ysayle herself - but basically, he acknowledged that even Louisoix himself resorted to primal summoning in his attempt to prevent the Calamity.

What's worth noting is that both times Ysayle transforms after she allied with us, she wasn't using up a source of aether that had been gathered for the exact purpose of her summoning. When she transformed against Ravana, she was essentially stealing his crystals. When she transformed at the Garleans, she was using her own Crystal of Light.

(Sure would be interesting if that turned out to be foreshadowing that we will eventually be forced to resort to the same thing with our own Crystals.)

Also, Thordan wasn't going to stop at just defeating the Ascians. He was intending to take over the entire world, (insert Saturday morning cartoon villain laugh here) or basically rule over all of mankind as an immortal god-king. To that end, he was trying to kill us, since as primal slayers, we were the first hurdle in that plan. Too bad for him, we ended up being the last hurdle as well.

[Shai]

Unrelated to Shiva and Thordan, I never really got why murder in Eorzia is as common as it can be, and not even frowned upon.

Unless it's someone important.

Yes. This bothers me as well.
You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

[LittleSparrow]

Yes. This bothers me as well.
You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

Mind you, a lot of Garlean soldiers were forced in service. They don't even believe in the cause. They were ripped from their homes to serve as soldiers, yet it's perfectly okay to just take their lives.

[Shai]

(Sure would be interesting if that turned out to be foreshadowing that we will eventually be forced to resort to the same thing with our own Crystals.)

Yes. I've been waiting for this since that Sahagin leader transformed himself into Leviathan.

It feels like an inevitable conclusion to our conflict with the Ascians -- which will (in effect) make us no different than Thordan.

Thordan doesn't use Eorzean aether either by the same token.
He used Nidhogg's Eye and the power already gathered by the Warring Triad.

So again, it's not that big of a distinction. In fact, Ysayle using Ravana's accumulated crystals still robs Eorzea of that aether, regardless of whether or not some other being had them "on reserve" or not. She's (in that scenario) more of a villain than Thordan because she's intentionally killing the planet to further the goals of her comrades -- who are trying to stop primals from killing the planet. I have issues with the double standard (obviously).

[Anonymoose]

The heart of the answer is that the two events aren't related.

Shiva

The Scions were set against Iceheart because all indications were that she planned to summon a primal, and that's one of the "Threat to Eorzea's Salvation" buzzwords that the Scions always deploy to neutralize. She maintained that her goals were righteous, but she had misinterpreted things at every step. She misinterpreted the contextless glimpse at the past she saw in Hraesvelgr's memory as divine providence - the revelation of her purpose in life. She misinterpreted Hydaelyn's silence as confirmation that she was on the right path, all while Lahabrea manipulated the heretics into creating a new primal. She misinterpreted the primal shade she brought into being as Saint Shiva's soul returning from the beyond to join her righteous cause.

After we fought Shiva and went on to meet with Midgardsormr, Iceheart kept on following that path. She brought down the outer wards of Ishgard and led the dragons to their gates, convinced that she would lead a tactical strike on the church and put an end to the deception ... except the dragons lost their focus almost immediately, unleashing their unbridled rage on the innocents in Foundation. Iceheart left this scene hurt and confused, regretting that she had been the cause of this massacre.

That's why we allied with Ysayle; her regret. Nidhogg was rallying the Horde for a final assault on Ishgard, and Alphinaud thought Ysayle would join us if there was even a tiny chance that her dream of peace between man and dragon could come true. She was supposed to be our introduction to Nidhogg, it just didn't work out that way. By the time Hraesvelgr broke through the rest of her delusions, we'd already formed a sense of camaraderie, and in time she came to believe in the Warrior of Light's path.

Ysayle was never under any delusions that primal summoning could be good, she was just sure that she was so righteous that it was the lesser evil. Pretty much everyone thinks that they're the one that will finally use the Wisdom of the Paragons and not get burned. Ironically, summoning Shiva to fight Ravana would have been the lesser evil if she'd actually managed to accomplish anything with it. Ravana would have drained the land and led a crusade to expand the Gnath domain and we needed him out of the way as soon as possible so the dragons would stop brushing us off. Time was a factor.

When she summons Shiva to fight the Empire, it's just a flat-out self-sacrifice play. All of her delusions had come undone and all she had was her dream of ending the Dragonsong War and her faith in the Warrior of Light's path, so she let the Crystal of Light given to her by Hydaelyn dissolve and used its energy to become Shiva one last time - to die enmeshed with the false goddess that had given her strength and comfort so that we might succeed (and good thing we did).

King Thordan

Thordan was convinced his path was righteous, but his betrayal of the Ascians came after their plans for him had already come to fruition. Even if he'd successfully used his primal form to wage a holy war against the dragons and the Empire and all the "enemies of peace" in the world, Elidibus would have just given some other faction (probably Garlemald) sufficient power to resist him long enough to ensure the titanic weapons deployed would cause a Calamity. He managed to circumvent the aetherial draw from the land (at first) by using the eyes of Nidhogg, and tried to circumvent it permanently in a failed bit to consume the Warring Triad, but it was a doomed plan from the start. Iceheart or no Iceheart, he had to go.

[Shai]

EDIT INCOMING

The suspense is killing me. *reloads topic again*

Also, Thordan wasn't going to stop at just defeating the Ascians. He was intending to take over the entire world, (insert Saturday morning cartoon villain laugh here) or basically rule over all of mankind as an immortal god-king. To that end, he was trying to kill us, since as primal slayers, we were the first hurdle in that plan. Too bad for him, we ended up being the last hurdle as well.

Also - I get this is true. As I said, Ysayle had a change of heart and understood the inherent dangers and faults in her use of aether to push her agenda. Thordan did not. I understand there is a fundamental difference in their personal beliefs. We sympathize with Ysayle, but rally against the tyranny and betrayal of Thordan. But most importantly (and this goes with the rampant mass-murder sub-topic) why was Thordan irredeemable? Why couldn't he be turned to our side? Rallied to our cause? What made him "evil" and beyond redemption besides - it would be too easy for God-King Thordan to save the planet then relinquish his power for the good of the people.

[Mysterysword]

But most importantly (and this goes with the rampant mass-murder sub-topic) why was Thordan irredeemable? Why couldn't he be turned to our side? Rallied to our cause? What made him "evil" and beyond redemption besides - it would be too easy for God-King Thordan to save the planet then relinquish his power for the good of the people.

Funny you should bring up that question, since I'm currently in the process of writing a fanfic that will eventually do that. For now, the best answer as to why we couldn't turn him, that I can come up with, is that we simply didn't realise his plan until it was too late and he was too far gone. The first inkling we had as to what he was planning was in the Vault, where the Heavensward had already successfully channeled their primal powers, and from there until ARFacility, we had no way of contacting or talking to him.

Perhaps we could've convinced him to work with us, if we'd caught him at an earlier point in time. Perhaps we could've teamed up to take down Lahabrea and Igeyorhm (I forgot how to spell her name and I didn't look it up). Perhaps Ishgard's transition from theocracy to republic could've been made way smoother with the help of a leader whose legitimacy was unquestionable. But "perhaps" is all we'll ever get now.

As for the mass-murder question... We tend to mow down mooks by the dozen, and whether or not we actually kill them or simply knock them out is debateable (our journal entries suggest that we kill as many as we incapacitate), but ultimately, I call it a matter of self-defense. Eorzea is a place where violence is a commonplace and accepted part of the average person's life - we have children fighting alongside us on several occasions with nobody commenting on it. Outright murder is still illegal in Eorzea, of course, but if you're fighting bandits and robbers? You can call it self-defense.

(As for Garlean soldiers being press-ganged into service and being unwilling to fight us, I don't know about that. A lot of supposed conscripts are shouting things like "Eorzean savages!" in speech bubbles at us, in-game. But in the end, they're still trying to kill us, and we aren't going to let that happen.)