Primals - A Discussion on Ethics & Philosophy (ARR & HW Spoilers)

[Mysterysword]

You know, if you want an issue to discuss ethics and morality about, you can just drag up the issue of how we treat our retainers and the various furnishing NPCs. We can force them to work 24/7 for us, standing in one spot all day long, and give them whatever demeaning nickname we decide.

But that's not the worst of it, oh no.

It's the existence of Retainer Fantasia. Which, if we so wish, we can specifically command our retainers to drink.

For our satisfaction, we, the WoL, force other people to change every aspect of their appearance, right down to their clan, race, and gender. Or we'll fire them if they don't comply. Go us!

[Alleo]

IMO Ysayle only used Shiva again if she thought that it was necessary and mostly used surrounding crystals or her own. The problems with primals is, that they not only need the aether once when they are summoned but that they constantly suck it up, to continue their existence. And on top of that they like to temper innocent people into being their slaves so that they will get more and more aether. This is imo why we have to kill them. Unlike the other primals Ysayle barely used Shiva anymore since she knew of the consequence but saw it fit in certain situations where she for a really short amount of time used some aether to help out in that form. Her last actions was also completely fueled by her own crystal of light so she did not endanger the environment with it.

Would she constantly and without any care use that power we would have had to stop her, but as far as I can remember she uses it only twice after she changed side.

We also took down Thordan because he himself was a danger to us all and not only because he had turned into a primal.

[Kallera]

We didn't kill Ysayle when she transformed into shiva because something else killed shiva for us. Where was it shown of Ysayle being about to revert back from the summoning on her own?

[Alleo]

We didn't kill Ysayle when she transformed into shiva because something else killed shiva for us. Where was it shown of Ysayle being about to revert back from the summoning on her own?

We cant know it 100% because there were only two cases like this till now in FF14. But seeing how the Heavensward was able to change their form without some sort of killing necessary one could say that this could stand for Ysayle too. Also not sure if Ravana did "kill" Shiva, which is the reason she changed back, or because she was out of aether. It is still speculation but for me it hints more in the direction that the special cases like her can change back at her own will.

[Delily]

Why do we ally ourselves with Ysayle in an attempt to defeat Thordan VII?

Ysayle was acting to help us end the Dragonsong War and bring peace between Ishgard and the Dravonians, whereas Thordan was willing to let the War continue to ensure his control over Ishgard in his plans to establish dominance over all Eorzea.

hat we're totally OK with Ysayle/Shiva sucking up aether and transforming to help us fight, but we're not ok with Thordan and the Knights doing it to ... fight the same battles

The implication here is that once the War was ended, Ysayle would stop using aether to transform into Shiva, whereas Thordan indicated he has no intention of letting go of his power. He also tempered the knights.

Ysayle finally comes on board that primals are bad -- it doesn't really stop her from transforming into one whenever the need arises

Primals are bad because they temper sentient beings into mindless fanatics who strive to bring more crystals and slaves to the primal. Ysayle, on the other hand, did need crystals, but she didn't temper anyone. The whole "primals suck aether" is a bit overdone because everything we do consumes aether. BLM, AST, WHM, PLD, DRK, and SMN use aether to cast spells. I know in some cases it's our personal aether supply, but how do you think we get it back? MCH use a device to condense aether into bullets. Aether is used for everything. The key difference between Shiva and Ifrit is that Ysayle will only consume enough aether as needed to accomplish the task, whereas a primal will continuously consume aether to stay alive.

[Delily]

Yes. This bothers me as well.
You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

Eorzea is at war with the Imperials. If you don't want to kill them, that won't prevent them from affording you the same luxury. Pressed or willingly is irrelevant when they have a sword pointed in your face. The same goes for the corrupted Brass Blades and the Crystal Braves. They were out for blood, and there was no way to reason with them or end the situation peacefully. They knew when they agreed to apprehend us what we were capable of. The reality is that sometimes the only way to stop people is to kill them.

[Anonymoose]

Where was it shown of Ysayle being about to revert back from the summoning on her own?

In each summoning (Akh Afah / Thok ast Thok / Gration), we see Ysayle exhaust herself; Shiva is basically beaten out of her. This suggests that (assuming she didn't actively consume crystals and draw from the land as would a normal primal) she could simply wait for the tank to run dry (or actively expend the energy) to cause the primal essence to withdraw at any time. See Phoenix; Louisoix was the primal and even he was able to relinquish his hold on the aetherial power at will.

Thordan might also serve as an example if everything about him wasn't a seeming contradiction. Nabriales says that the Echo is required to host a primal; Thordan doesn't have it (as far as anyone knows). His mortal frame being so stuffed with power ostensibly contributed to Louisoix's death; it didn't bother (the allegedly Echo-less) Thordan at all. The Knights of the Round could shape-shift on a whim. Yoshida-san says that only Thordan was a primal and the Knights of the Round manifested through his power (implying that he'd already been infused with Thordan along the way at least to a degree); the lore book says that Thordan's summoning ritual was perfected through practice on creating the Knights of the Round's primal forms first. And both interpretations explain Zephirin.

As someone trying to keep the archives in order, Thordan is a constant source of frustration.

[CaesarCV]

Edit to come

[Delily]

Thordan had the Nidhogg's eyes with him at the time, those have proven to be immensely powerful conduits of aether. I'm going to say that's why Thodan wasn't killed when he transformed. As for the discrepancies between the Lore book and Yoshi-P, I'd say the Vault gives the lore book's explanation more weight. That happens before the final fight with Thordan, and there we fight 3 mini primals.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

Justice, history, legacy, prestige, these things stack. We do one right thing, it doesn't really matter ... but we do it for 3 whole campaigns, and anyone having done less would have a lesser claim than the "Warrior of Light, chosen of Hydaelyn" to being "just". Those who dwell in darkness are hurt by light, just as we may be hurt by darkness, perhaps even more, but we hurt them with light just the same. It's less a question of ethics, eventually, but whether one can keep winning and snowballing that legacy. I'd like to see an arc where we actually do something wrong, for once, and must face those consequences, or at least be humbled by it. Would raise the ... ahem, "claim" of this game, in my mind, substantially. Very nice and helpful posts in this thread as well.