Primals - A Discussion on Ethics & Philosophy (ARR & HW Spoilers)

[LineageRazor]

Mind you, a lot of Garlean soldiers were forced in service. They don't even believe in the cause. They were ripped from their homes to serve as soldiers, yet it's perfectly okay to just take their lives.

It's NOT okay - and the WoL acknowledges that it's not okay - in particular, the DRK storyline deals very closely with the guilt involved in the necessary taking of a life. The keyword is "necessary"; when a soldier comes at you with intent to kill or be killed, one's options are limited.

One might argue that diplomacy should be attempted - and it can be assumed the diplomacy IS attempted, behind the scenes, where it won't interfere with enjoyable gameplay. Many things in this game are abbreviated (enemy camps are absurdly close to towns, a typical city only has dozens of people in it instead of thousands, and so on) in order to promote better gameplay, and it can be presumed that we are constantly looking through a lens of simplification. In reality, it would take days to cross the Sagolii desert, not minutes. Skirmishes would involve hundreds of soldiers, not dozens. The same goes for diplomacy; at best, the game will dabble with it on-screen; it's not going to prelude every skirmish with an attempt to talk them down first.

But most importantly (and this goes with the rampant mass-murder sub-topic) why was Thordan irredeemable?

One theory that I was fond of is that a big difference between Ysayle's summon and Thordan's summon is that Thordan has no Echo - and, as seems to be the case elsewhere - anyone participating in a Summoning automatically becomes Tempered in the process. Ysayle, possessing the Echo, was fine. Thordan, on the other hand, basically Tempered himself. He became devoted to himself, and worshiped himself, and was going to go to any lengths to acquire the power to preserve himself. As with any Tempered individual, it was necessary to put him down, because given the opportunity he WOULD summon King Thordan again.

Ysayle, on the other hand... The analogy to Shiva being her suit of armor was a good one. While I'm sure the WoL disapproves of Ysayle's transformations, the WoL also trusts her to relinquish the form once the task is completed. As with the slaughter of opposing soldiers, it is a necessary evil. (How necessary it ACTUALLY is at times is debatable, given that Ysayle lost quickly against Ravana, whom we then proceeded to trounce; if we'd just gone first, there would have been no need for a summoning! Nevertheless, I think we can agree that between fighting Ravana as Ysayle and fighting Ravana as Shiva, the WoL made the sensible choice in allowing her to transform.)

However, throwing a wrench into my theory about Echo vs. non-Echo...

Nabriales says that the Echo is required to host a primal;

I honestly don't remember this being stated, but Moose is a very reliable source of Lore so I guess it happened. That said, Nabriales is probably knowledgeable about this kind of thing, and this would mean that Thordan DOES have the Echo. Whether it was granted to him by Hydaelyn, or some equivalent was bestowed upon him by the Ascians (thanks to the Garleans' Resonance, we now know that artificial Echo is a possibility, and it'd be not at all surprising to learn that the Ascians had such a trick up their sleeve) is not particularly relevant, but I think we can be confident that he did, indeed, have it. So, perhaps, he could have been talked down - and maybe we even tried, in a lengthy act of diplomacy that was too wretched and boring to show on-screen. XD

As for Moose's other contradictions, I don't think we can even remotely compare the Aether being bandied about during our encounter with Thordan to the ridiculous amounts involved with Bahamut, so it may simply be the case that the amount in Thordan's case wasn't enough to be lethal, like Louisoix's was. Or even particularly uncomfortable. And even if we were to insist that there were dangerous amounts of power, remember that Thordan had the Ultimate MacGuffin - Nidhogg's Eye - to explain away his ability to contain that power. As for the chicken-and-egg bit with Thordan and the Knights, this may be comparable to the way that Beastmen Temper people when there isn't actually a Primal summoned to help out. Thordan was in charge of the ritual that powered up his Ward, even without (yet) being a Primal himself. It was still "his power", as it were, and so the Knights were still loyal to him when he finally turned that power on himself.

[Anonymoose]

Nabriales says that the Echo is required to host a primal

I honestly don't remember this being stated, but Moose is a very reliable source of Lore

Because I keep the receiiipts! <throws strips of paper into the air and laughs maniacally>

Nabriales
And so the vessel withdraws. A predictable outcome.

「超える力」を持つ者への「神」の憑依。
People with the 「exceeding power」 (Echo) can become possessed of 「gods」.

Und so entschwindet das Gefäß. Es war vorherzusehen.
And so the vessel vanishes. This was foreseen.

Les humains doués de l'Écho peuvent donc servir de vaisseaux pour l'influx divin...
The humans gifted with the Echo can thus serve as vessels for the divine influx...

Ahem... Anyroad...

That said, Nabriales is probably knowledgeable about this kind of thing

I would assume so, as well. When you meet him in 2.5, he refers to your victory over Iceheart as undoing all of the hard work Lahabrea put him up to in order to merge man and the divine.

this would mean that Thordan DOES have the Echo. Whether it was granted to him by Hydaelyn, or some equivalent was bestowed upon him by the Ascians

I like to think Elidibus did it. It links 2.1 to 2.3 and makes the whole post-Gaius 2.X scenario look like a build-up to the success of Project Thordan, and (perhaps accidentally and retroactively, but so be it) makes the incident with the Sahagin elder look like foreshadowing - especially since the Sahagin meets his end having his immortal soul consumed by a primal. Entirely headcanon, especially now that it seems on the "Please don't think too hard about this, we cannot answer this." list, lol.

I don't think we can even remotely compare the Aether being bandied about during our encounter with Thordan to the ridiculous amounts involved with Bahamut, so it may simply be the case that the amount in Thordan's case wasn't enough to be lethal, like Louisoix's was. Or even particularly uncomfortable. And even if we were to insist that there were dangerous amounts of power, remember that Thordan had the Ultimate MacGuffin - Nidhogg's Eye - to explain away his ability to contain that power.

That's about where I'm at, as well, for a Plan B; though it requires one additional caveat. The vast majority of Thordan's power would have been channeled through Ascalon, the divine blade constructed around the Eye, thus limiting the exposure his mortal form would have had to endure. However, not all of it. The Archbishop becomes a primal before he even takes possession of the eye or forges Ascalon. He uses The Fury's Grace (an ancient crozier embedded with a raw sapphire, allegedly gifted to Archbishop Reymanaud I by a "divine messenger") to channel the burst of aether required to summon Thordan I's soul into himself while the Eye sits embedded and inactive in Haldrath's corpse.

Still, Estinien was able to survive the same aetherial infusion, skin cracking, etc. through constant transformation and the aid of the eyes. Granted that says nothing of how Thordan resisted the primal influence or gained command over it or even managed to merge his soul into another in the first place. I'd have to yield the floor to Nabriales on that one.

[Lutefisk]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Thordan didn't have the Echo.

If the whole point of getting Thordan to summon a big nasty primal was to bleed the land dry and cause enough instability to potentially trigger another Rejoining, what purpose would giving him the ability to turn off the transformation at will even serve? The Ascians can't mind control people to do whatever they want so there's no guarantee Thordan wouldn't have just used his primal mode to occasionally blast some mean dragons and evildoers to smithereens and then dismissed it like Ysayle does with Shiva.

And if he's not going to be sucking up aether round the clock why even bother with this kind of elaborate plan instead of handing a few boxes of crystals to beastmen for another batch of the old primals?

[Delily]

Thordan and Ysayle had 2 different purposes. Ysayle wanted to end the Dragonsong War, whereas Thordan was on a quest for power. He had to have something, as there is no way his body could hold that much aetheric energy, so he either had the Echo, Resonance, or Niddhogg's Eyes held the majority of it. The reason to give him that power is because he wouldn't surrender it, and it was pretty clear he was out to start a war.

[LineageRazor]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Thordan didn't have the Echo.

If the whole point of getting Thordan to summon a big nasty primal was to bleed the land dry and cause enough instability to potentially trigger another Rejoining, what purpose would giving him the ability to turn off the transformation at will even serve? The Ascians can't mind control people to do whatever they want so there's no guarantee Thordan wouldn't have just used his primal mode to occasionally blast some mean dragons and evildoers to smithereens and then dismissed it like Ysayle does with Shiva.

And if he's not going to be sucking up aether round the clock why even bother with this kind of elaborate plan instead of handing a few boxes of crystals to beastmen for another batch of the old primals?

Your bringing up Ysayle pretty much answers your own question. She undoubtedly learned to Summon from the Ascians, as well; even if her direct interactions with them were not shown on-screen, the Ascians taught everyone else how to summon, so it follows they taught her, too. Why bother teaching Ysayle, if she's only going to use it sparingly?

Because it's better than nothing. They'd PREFER folks to simply summon uncontrolled Primals like Ifrit or Leviathan, rather than have Echo users that summon into themselves and therefore are able to control them, but are also aware that some folks simply aren't going to go for it. The Beast Tribes jumped at the chance to call upon their beloved gods. The kids in Ala Mhigo were similarly enthused about Rhalgr, until we talked them down. Ilberd was perfectly content to have an uncontrollable Primal running amok.

Ysayle and Thordan, though, weren't so keen on the idea, and so the Ascians offered an alternative: a pet Primal under their explicit control. Ysayle, already possessing the Echo, was good to go. Thordan may or may not have had it; we have no real way of knowing. If he didn't, though, giving it to him was a requirement because, as Nabriales mentioned, only those with the Echo can contain a Primal.

Lahabrea: Yo, king! Wanna summon a Primal to rub out some lizards?
Thordan: HELL NAW. I don't wanna be some chump slave.
Lahabrea: Dang. Welp, you wanna BE a Primal instead?
Thordan: I'm listening...

[Raqrie_Tohka]

I just had a random thought ... if there were possible ways to summon a controllable primal, or just to control one, would it be ethical to use that power? Or is primals and everything to do with them just taboo?

Edit: The more I think of it, the more dangerously close we are approaching the territory of comparing "Primals" with "Nukes", and the complexities involving ownership of one. If an alternative to "most powerful weapon existing" besides 'nukes' were 'magic'. Or magitek-magic.

Edit: Edit: And if elements of the weather could actually turn alive and want to whop our hinds, like Garuda being akin to sentient hurricanes. Or just Bahamut being bahamut. Hmm we might actually have something interesting here: weather-based weapons, radio-wave mind-control (primals do that too) ... errr I might just be thinking too much.

[Alleo]

I just had a random thought ... if there were possible ways to summon a controllable primal, or just to control one, would it be ethical to use that power? Or is primals and everything to do with them just taboo?

Well there once was a talk about FC summoning primals so at least at that point the team saw this as no big problem but I would say that summoning a controllable primal should only be used as a last resort because otherwise this would lead just to overuse and lots of lost aether. So if its just simple for the easy way out, I would feel horrible for using them and would see this as morally wrong since we could have had better solutions but if the only way to stop another calamity is by using a primal then this would still be not good for the land but at least it was out of pure necessity.

[Cilia]

I was of the mind that Ysayle / Shiva was just a prototype for (King) Thordan. The main point of Shiva was to see if it was possible for a mortal to channel the power of a primal; Ysayle herself, while very driven, did not have the lust for power that would cause her to abuse her Super Saiyan primal form. Thordan, on the other hand, very clearly wanted power - and it was not to end the Dragonsong War, as by the time he truly sets his plan into motion Nidhogg was already slain, setting the foundation for peace (or at least a respite from war).

While the Eye would have mitigated King Thordan's aetheric consumption, his plan was to temper all Ishgard, then lead it on a crusade against... well, pretty much everyone, and eventually put the world under his heel. Needless to say this would have caused problems, not the least of which would be riling up Garlemald. I am firmly against killing unless absolutely necessary (I taken aback at how easily Musosai executed that Lalafell weeb and the corrupt Ishgardian noble), but the alternative was far too unacceptable and Thordan's own son had shown he was unwilling to negotiate. We did what we had to do - the alternative was, as Elidibus suggests, allowing another Calamity to come to pass. (Of course, just why this kills Thordan and not Ysayle I couldn't say.)

[Lutefisk]

If he didn't, though, giving it to him was a requirement because, as Nabriales mentioned, only those with the Echo can contain a Primal.

Well that's the thing, I'm not really convinced about that. I took Nabriales' lines to mean that he was commenting on how the Echo interacts with summoning a primal rather than stating it was a requirement for pulling off the trick of transforming yourself into one instead of bringing it forth as a separate entity. ”So this chick can control Shiva? And she can turn back to normal after she dissipates? Fascinating.”

Though I guess I'm just more inclined to believe that mostly because I think from a thematic standpoint Thordan's lack of Echo would make for a better contrast between him and Ysayle.

[Mysterysword]

(Of course, just why this kills Thordan and not Ysayle I couldn't say.)

Easiest answer? Thordan was 74, and Ysayle was 50 years younger than him. Additionally, we were level 50 when fighting Ysayle, and level 60 against Thordan.