Again the regen thing! Wasn't it gone and done?

[micropanther7]

I have not read all 15 pages - but in my experience, a good tank can function perfectly well during pulls whether they have Regen on or not. I still consider it bad form for a healer to cast Regen during a pull, but it's enough of a non-issue for me that I neither complain, nor click it off before pulling. I'm aware I have Regen on, and I know who the mobs are going to beeline for. That gives me all I need to know to intercept them, while still keeping up the pace. Same goes for leftover Regen after finishing off a pack of mobs, which it's much harder to blame a healer for.

If I miss out on the fact that I have Regen on and mess up a pull, I consider that to be as much my bad (for not paying attention) as the healer's.

Have I missed a memo or something about not using Regen on trash pulls AT ALL? I'm talking after they've pulled humongous packs, not a handful of mobs. Apologies if I misread your meaning I usually PoM/Aero 3, assize if it's off cooldown, few holys, maybe use benediction/eye for an eye/regen if the tank's out of cooldowns. I usually chuck a regen on extra squishies as well, and have had yet to rip hate off the tank to the extent some people are suggesting in this thread, aggro bar rarely moves (maybe if I'm level synced down into Cutter's Cry Then again I'm extra careful there and in other lower level dungeons, new tanks learning and all that). Depends on the tank really, if they're new to the instance and finding their feet, it's just adjusting to each other's flow. Healers and tanks should support each other!!

1) Pull a few targets.
2) Wait for the Regen to tick.
3) Allow the healer to take aggro and die swiftly.
4) /laugh at their corpse.

LOL evil

[LineageRazor]

Have I missed a memo or something about not using Regen on trash pulls AT ALL? I'm talking after they've pulled humongous packs, not a handful of mobs. Apologies if I misread your meaning I usually PoM/Aero 3, assize if it's off cooldown, few holys, maybe use benediction/eye for an eye/regen if the tank's out of cooldowns. I usually chuck a regen on extra squishies as well, and have had yet to rip hate off the tank to the extent some people are suggesting in this thread, aggro bar rarely moves (maybe if I'm level synced down into Cutter's Cry Then again I'm extra careful there and in other lower level dungeons, new tanks learning and all that). Depends on the tank really, if they're new to the instance and finding their feet, it's just adjusting to each other's flow. Healers and tanks should support each other!!

I think you must be misreading me. Absolutely, Regen should be used while fighting trash mobs. It's one of, if not THE most MP efficient cures in the game. It's just best to wait on casting it until the tank has performed some kind of enmity-generating action on EVERY mob in the pack. However, it was also my point that a good tank will be able to maintain control over every mob in the pack even if the healer does NOT wait. To such a tank, having Regen active during a pull is a minor inconvenience, at worst.

[micropanther7]

I think you must be misreading me. Absolutely, Regen should be used while fighting trash mobs. It's one of, if not THE most MP efficient cures in the game. It's just best to wait on casting it until the tank has performed some kind of enmity-generating action on EVERY mob in the pack. However, it was also my point that a good tank will be able to maintain control over every mob in the pack even if the healer does NOT wait. To such a tank, having Regen active during a pull is a minor inconvenience, at worst.

Ah yeah I was misreading thank you for the clarification

[Miste]

it was also my point that a good tank will be able to maintain control over every mob in the pack even if the healer does NOT wait.

Keeping control on every mob at the beginning of a pull is limited to GCD though which for some reason a lot of people don't realize.

No tank can keep control of every mob if a healer puts regen on as they pull if the mobs in the pull are too spread out. If the mobs are too spread out you cannot hit them all in one GCD so then you need two GCDs.

If the healer regens the tank just as they pulled and the tank missed 1-2 of the mobs due to them being too spread out then those mobs the tank missed are going to be loose and run after the healer. This is not because the tank is bad, but because it is factually impossible to hit all mobs in a pull with one GCD if they are too far spread out.

If the mobs are all close together and you can run up and overpower/flash/unleash and hit them all then there is no issue, but not every pull in this game you are able to do that.

I mean yeah, in the end you just go and chase down the mobs that went after the healer, but you still lost control. Objectively it wasn't the tank's fault though since only the healer has the power to just wait until all mobs have been hit at least once by the tank which I see you understand and agree on that point. We are all limited how many actions we can take in a certain span of time because of the GCD timer.

[LineageRazor]

No tank can keep control of every mob if a healer puts regen on as they pull if the mobs in the pull are too spread out. If the mobs are too spread out you cannot hit them all in one GCD so then you need two GCDs.

The thing is, though, you DON'T have to chase them around, even when they are spread out - because an aware tank knows exactly where they are going. They are going toward the healer, and the healer is likely not far behind you. They all converge on the healer, then one Flash, Overpower, or Unleash and they're all back in hand again. Yes, this slows the pull slightly, but not enough to add a significant amount of risk.

A good tank will see how spread apart the upcoming monsters are, and correctly judge whether they'll be able to get them all in one aoe right off the bat, or whether they need to move toward the healer and THEN get them all in one aoe. I don't consider it to be a loss of control if the mobs are moving exactly as you expect them to, and you're responding in the correct manner to gather them efficiently - even if they smack the healer once or twice in the process.

[Paladinleeds]

A good tank will see how spread apart the upcoming monsters are, and correctly judge whether they'll be able to get them all in one aoe right off the bat, or whether they need to move toward the healer and THEN get them all in one aoe. I don't consider it to be a loss of control if the mobs are moving exactly as you expect them to, and you're responding in the correct manner to gather them efficiently - even if they smack the healer once or twice in the process.

As a Paladin, from level 40 you also get access to Cover. So you can throw it on the healer, let the healer get hit once or twice, take the damage yourself (with 20% reduction to boot!), while regrabbing aggro. Sorted. Healer takes no damage.

[Miste]

snip

Well you said "a good tank can maintain control on every mob in the pull even if the healer doesn't wait to heal"

So... my definition of "maintaining control" would be that the tank is the only one who gets hate or hit, but if the healer gets flashing red hate on any mob for even a small amount of time or gets hit then to me that isn't "maintaining control". That's why I said what I said.

Your definition is very strange to me, so I guess it would be impossible to know what you meant unless you explained it since it isn't the traditional definition of the word control. If the mobs hit the healer then the healer is tanking them, even if briefly, so to me that isn't control because a tank's job is to tank and yet the healer is doing it.

So yeah I guess simple misunderstanding because your definition of control is very different from mine.

Also yeah you do have to chase them sometimes. Some healers will literally run away from you. I've seen it happen often enough. I guess you haven't been so unlucky...because yeah with server latency you gotta chase them down sometimes and its really annoying. Plus the fact the healer can catch you off guard by literally putting the regen on you just as you pull so you weren't expecting it, if it is not right as I pull I can just click it off.

But we pretty much agree anyway since you know that prepull regen isn't necessary so it should be avoided, I just took "maintaining control" as in no one but the tank would ever have hate even with overheal on pull which as you know isn't possible if a healer overheals right as the tank pulls, but I see what you actually meant now that you explained it. Tanks can adapt just fine, but it still wastes time, TP/MP, and also loss of DPS cause of positioning for the DPS to start AoEing or the melee trying to do positionals.

[Tint]

The thing is, though, you DON'T have to chase them around, even when they are spread out - because an aware tank knows exactly where they are going. They are going toward the healer, and the healer is likely not far behind you. They all converge on the healer, then one Flash, Overpower, or Unleash and they're all back in hand again. Yes, this slows the pull slightly, but not enough to add a significant amount of risk.

yeah... that's what you think should the healer do. but the other day the healer stayed at max healing range away from me and i had to run all the way back to him to grab the stuff, messing up the whole pull for the DDs...

no, i had NO control over the mobs, after the healer grabbed hate. and i noticed it is worse than in 3.x. healers now throw aoe regen while pulling, ASTs their cards or other buffs, like eye for an eye, even bards pull off hate now with their defensive cd... maybe they have good intentions, but their "help" causes just more trouble (and how did they time their buffs that they hit the short window between face aggro and my aoe? xD okay, maybe it's just ala mhigo where this is really a problem)

one more problem i have noticed, as a DRK player, is that using more mana than necessary for the pull because of people who pull hate off, leads to problems with my dark arts + abyssal drain selfheal, wich is extremely important for my survival in those big pulls.