My first bad experience with another player. :o

[Sarteck]

GUys, I've been trying to follow this thread, but I'm confused by one term I keep seeing over and over. What's a "premade?"

[Sarteck]

Also, why can't SE fix this another way? Why can't they make it so that people that skip the long cutscenes suddenly have a trap door open, drop them to a secret area with extra content, and let them fight their way through that until all cutscenes are completed? Get extra items or whatever from it, have it geared towards "high-level", maybe even auto-unsync it until the last player viewing cutscenes is finished. Or some other crazy stuff like that?

[Vidu]

GUys, I've been trying to follow this thread, but I'm confused by one term I keep seeing over and over. What's a "premade?"

A party you make yourself before entering content in DF - it can either apply to having a full party (of 4 or 8 people) or just you with a few friends, so you'll still get randoms in.

Also, why can't SE fix this another way? Why can't they make it so that people that skip the long cutscenes suddenly have a trap door open, drop them to a secret area with extra content, and let them fight their way through that until all cutscenes are completed? Get extra items or whatever from it, have it geared towards "high-level", maybe even auto-unsync it until the last player viewing cutscenes is finished. Or some other crazy stuff like that?

Two reasons basically:
First they dont want to revisit that old content and put effort into it - as harsh as it sounds: its not worth their time. Its unlikely they're actually losing money over this or anything. It sucks, but its one bad experience people will have in this game - an important one, I get that, but its still not enough of a problem. They've learned from it, they've moved on and so did every single player who went through that for the first time.

And second: I doubt that thats a fix - its not just "standing around doing nothing" that annoys people there, even though thats a big-factor. Its also that it takes 30-45 minutes (+15 minutes or so for the actual dungeon). The average dungeon only takes 15-20 minutes. People want to be done by then, they dont want to spend an hour in a dungeon.

This thing really isnt to win. It would need re-modelling on their side but its not important enough to do that, sorry. Again: Yes, I know grande finale ruined for first time players and so on. It does suck, no one is denying that.
I really believe the best fix here is to just give out a warning message like we're getting before long cutscenes, so newbies can prepare and possibly get a decent party together. Or, if they dont care (enough), just take DF.
Or they can probably change it to a 4 man dungeon - it doesnt really need 8 people to begin with, never did. And 4 people are a lot easier to control than 8...
But again - probably just not worth the effort.

[Snow_Princess]

Vidu basically answered but let me add a bit:

Just a bit....
But 200 creation/ 200verity/ 200 poetics, sure why not, make +50/+100/+100 for first time clear bonus too, do that and ya feel free disable allowing to skip, if not on a 70, triple exp then what we get now (quad if on bonus) I honesly do not think that is asking for too much, anything short of triple of what we get now, people will do other things for a better exp/hr

Basically you need make it so it is worth people's time to do. If you take your suggested (SE will never do it but just saying) if extra content was added there while people watch cs making the DF 40 mins - 1 hr long without giving the rewards I stated, no one would queue for it. People tend to flow though the path of least resistance, same with electricity. However if another path is at least comparable, some would simply do it because it is something different to do.

Sorry about not explaining what a premade means. I do not know how wide spread people use the term but I use it to refer to 2+ people queued together. 2 or 3 in a group of 4 can pretty much rule the flow, don't follow get kicked, same with 4 or 5 in a party of 8. Sometimes there is someone unkind and outspoken , I met a few of them, and no matter what is said, the rest of the premade shield that person from vote kicking. I met a premade of 5 or 6, do not remember during a relic trial. The premade was intentionally wiping and not fighting adds at all, leaving me to solo them. This is why I am disagreeing with the idea that a GM said "whatever the majority does goes" because premades definitely abuse that loophole if GMs always follow that.

[kikix12]

That option is to provide you with a way to skip cutscenes you've already watched, so you don't have to view the same cutscene repeatedly if you'd prefer not to.

Yeah...That's exactly what it is for. It's nice to see someone actually get it after I mentioned it twice and someone else mentioned it now. And it was put there by the developers. So stop with this "as developers intended" crap. No one intended for the players that cleared the content to rewatch the cutscenes or wait for the players that watch the cutscenes. And most people here are NOT talking about players trying to bully others into skipping the cutscenes.

And we're talking about a developer that made not only jump potion for levels, but a jump potion for story. Aka., a new-player-only potion that makes players COMPLETELY skip these dungeons and their story, along with a LOT of other stuff.

Face it, the developers never intended for anyone to play this game in any particular way. They want players to HAVE FUN, because players that have fun pay the subscription, and players that don't...won't. That's why there are so many OPTIONS. That's why this discussion is even possible, because there are ample methods to skip the cutscenes whether personal, or party wide (aka. the rest of the party is in no way held back when someone watches cutscenes, and the people watching cutscenes will be transported straight to instance with other members if the party managed to reach Baelsar and further, instead of being stuck out).

If the developers intended for players to primarily view cutscenes inside of an inn instead of where they're placed in dungeons, then the devs wouldn't place said cutscenes in dungeons to begin with. They'd just throw up a message on the screen saying "visit your local inn for the corresponding cutscene - people want a speed run, yo.". Just because we have the option of watching cutscenes in an inn (handy if you just want to view a cutscene again for whatever reason) doesn't mean everyone should be expected to go that route.

Of course you won't, because that would require answering some hard questions that you probably don't have any good answers for.

Pay attention when reading. These "hard questions" you are talking about were answered by me, multiple times, over the course of the two posts I made in this thread already, one of which was what you responded to. You're just spouting the same stuff that many people before you. What, you expect a new answer to the same question till you're satisfied?! CHANGE THE QUESTION, THEN expect a new answer. No matter how many people you ask, everyone will say that 1+2=3, and it won't change just cause you ask it again.

Typical modern player mentality.

You are ignorant, self-centered and lazy. You didn't even bother to pay attention when reading, and then you twist whatever was written to fuel your self-imposed crusade against the "bad veterans".

In my first post in this thread, I have written this:

So though I won't say anything bout people watching the short cutscenes in normal dungeons, I will tell people in Praetorium and Castle Meridianum, after the first cutscene, that they may want to skip the cutscenes and watch them at the inn later since the party is unlikely to wait for them. Without name calling and all that, of course. If they will still watch cutscenes...well. They still won't get to play it "how it's meant to be played", since they won't...well...play anything at all. Just watch the cutscenes one after another. It's just too much of a pain to get worked over people that don't show respect to the time of others, just like it is too much of a pain to get worked over people that do not respect others.

Aka., I am the sort that will politely inform the player that the party in these dungeons most likely will continue while they watch, and if they want to actually play the dungeon, something that they can't do solo at that point in their progression, unlike watching cutscenes, they are better off skipping the scenes. If they value the cutscenes more, their choice.

As long as you get a reward, don't be a douche to new players that looks at cutscenes.

I'm not. I'm not a douche to others while playing at all. I don't play the game either to deal with jackasses, nor to be one. As shown by my first post here, the part that I quoted above. I have no issues helping newer players and what not, but I DO have an issue wasting others time. That's why I myself skip cutscenes in dungeons that I play through for the first time, even if I myself am very much interested in the story and watching them. I skip cutscenes even when playing with friends that say it's fine not to do that. Cause, you know, I have more respect for the time of others, strangers or acquaintances alike, than most people here seem to have for anyone or anything at all.

As I said, it's a compromise. Want a fast clear?! Let others have a fast run. Want a "complete" clear?! Deal with the time required to find a party that wants the same "complete" experience. And before "what kind of a compromise it is if you get what you want, giving nothing in return". There is something given in return. The run would go even faster if that ill-geared rookie that doesn't know mechanics and is playing inefficiently was replaced with another veteran. And yet, no one does that. And Castle Meridianum and Praetorium have a LOT of mechanics that depending on how they are done, significantly slow or speed up the run.

[Mysticdraggon]

SE really need to re-design Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium level 50 MS dungeons. these two dungeons alone have been the source for many cases from new players claiming that they have met an extremely toxic player(s), yet no one once considered that the players are not the problem; it is the dungeons themselves.

suggestions:

Castrum Meridianum:

a lot less cutscenes in general. we dont really need to see everything, including the mini-bosses' death scenes. we don't need to witness every event happening via cutscenes either. with that said, a more creative approach would be to create similar events that happen in the background.

The Praetorium:

make it so that Gaius, The Ultima Weapon, and Lahabrea are stand-alone trials. Nero needs an update if he is going to be the final boss within Praetorium and the dungeon itself needs more obstacles to compensate for the time defeating 3 bosses in the end. speaking of obstacles, the SE really needs to prevent players from speeding through each room, because some mobs are untouched if players know how to slip past them. im mostly talking about entry nodes without the need for concepts such as keys in order to pass.

[Ilan]

You need to go with what the party is doing, they're running ahead? You run ahead. You and your friend leeched this party. I'd have booted you. Your experience is not worth more than mine or the parties.

And i would've reported you for abusing the kick option.

[Paladinleeds]

And i would've reported you for abusing the kick option.

And it would come under "Playstyle Differences" which isn't kick abuse. Yes, playstyle differences is considered a valid reason to kick another player, and the GMs would just chalk it up to that. Not defending it (I wouldn't kick them myself, because of how the instance can be done with so few people, that and I am willing to allow people to watch cutscenes), but that is their perogative and the GMs wouldn't do anything about it.

[Ilan]

And it would come under "Playstyle Differences" which isn't kick abuse. Yes, playstyle differences is considered a valid reason to kick another player, and the GMs would just chalk it up to that. Not defending it (I wouldn't kick them myself, because of how the instance can be done with so few people, that and I am willing to allow people to watch cutscenes), but that is their perogative and the GMs wouldn't do anything about it.

And i would still report someone who kicks new players because these friendly people were once new too and got probably their sorry asses carried through all these dungeons and think they are special now.

[Sarteck]

Maybe they could just make two versions of it.

You could choose which version to run, and the "story-mode" one would adjust mechanics according to whatever character types were in at the time.

For example, a DPS enters in Duty Finder. As he is a newbie, and he hasn't fiddled with any CHaracter Configuration overmuch, he had not disabled the option that will pop-up an additional window stating, "YOu can choose to run this in either Story-mode or Party-Mode." It will explain that Story-mode will open a queue for up to 8 players of ANY class that have unlocked it. It will change the boss mechanics if, say, 8 DPS registered, maybe for the boss to have high-health or invulnerability at certain stages and the DPS had to know when to pull back and charge up, but that he inflicted low enough damage that the "Role" techniques could protect anyone. If less than 8 characters had queued at the end of the timer, it would scale the enemies' strength accordingly.

It would be a long, complicated process, but it would eliminate the need to run it with a party that just wants to get through it, and it would give an option if you stubbornly wanted to party. When selecting "Party Option", it would warn you, "YOu will be unable to view cutscenes in this mode--please visit the Inn in any large City to view them afterwards."

It's work for the devs, yeah, but it's at least an attempt at a solution.