My first bad experience with another player. :o

[kikix12]

Why are you going to these dungeons if not to help players with their story missions, delivered to them in the way the developers intended?

*Sigh* Read the post you respond to. I have very thoroughly, in multiple ways, explained why this "oh so important" argument is as valid for this whole discussion as the fact that I have no dog. Aka. not valid at all.

You do not need to get poetics from this dungeon. You do not need to run these two dungeons for experience. What you want and need are two different things. New players, however, *do* have to run these two dungeons, and I believe most would prefer to watch the cutscenes while clearing them rather than watching them in an inn after.

And?! I do not need the experience or poetics, but these players do not need the cutscenes, either. You said it yourself. They would prefer. In other words, your very argument invalidates itself. Not even two other arguments, but the very same argument you are trying to make. What the players need is a dungeon clear. And ironically, SKIPPING cutscenes and existence of the roulette are what make their need something, they can fulfill in a reasonable amount of time with barely any effort. That and...ya know...the experience and poetics that other people don't need, but most certainly want. And people tend to do stuff that leads to them getting what they want. Cause, you know, that's why people that cleared that stuff actually run it vast majority of the time.

I won't waste my time answering to your post beyond this now. I'm all for discussion, but a discussion is a back and forth trade of arguments and counterarguments (or information, but that's not applicable here). You did naught of that, merely stating the same thing as all the people before you that got me irked in the first place. You didn't even bother to write it differently! You did not try to counter a single one of my arguments.

[Snow_Princess]

*Sigh* Read the post you respond to. I have very thoroughly, in multiple ways, explained why this "oh so important" argument is as valid for this whole discussion as the fact that I have no dog. Aka. not valid at all.

And?! I do not need the experience or poetics, but these players do not need the cutscenes, either. You said it yourself. They would prefer. In other words, your very argument invalidates itself. Not even two other arguments, but the very same argument you are trying to make. What the players need is a dungeon clear. And ironically, SKIPPING cutscenes and existence of the roulette are what make their need something, they can fulfill in a reasonable amount of time with barely any effort. That and...ya know...the experience and poetics that other people don't need, but most certainly want. And people tend to do stuff that leads to them getting what they want. Cause, you know, that's why people that cleared that stuff actually run it vast majority of the time.

I won't waste my time answering to your post beyond this now. I'm all for discussion, but a discussion is a back and forth trade of arguments and counterarguments (or information, but that's not applicable here). You did naught of that, merely stating the same thing as all the people before you that got me irked in the first place. You didn't even bother to write it differently! You did not try to counter a single one of my arguments.

Well said, keep in mind there is also a configuration character option to skip CS that you viewed already to bypass the loading time. So you can't (or rather the person your quoting) has no ground to stand on when it is said " help players with their story missions, delivered to them in the way the developers intended" The intent, as you said kiki, is to give people something that did it already that is worth their time. Keep in mind the alternatives out there (running at level DF) still nets more EXP, it is there to help bypass level ranges that are slow (51-61) should you chose you wanna do something different then deep once in a while. 60-61 exp gain sucks the most, compared to the exp gain speed in other ranges. MSQ and trial roulette help speed that up without repetitive grinding of one thing too much.

So the intent is to give something to people that did it already while helping new players.

Poetics can be obtained elsewhere... and it's a darned good thing that people DO choose to do the Roulette, instead, whether they choose to speed run or not. I won't bother trying to guess what your experience with MMOs might be, but coming from FFXI, I can assure you that trying to put together a party to run content with little or no rewards for most of the participants is pretty horrendous. It was not at all unusual for it to take days of searching to gather enough people to progress through old content. Heck, it could take days just to find three people willing to take ten minutes out of their spare time to stand on a few buttons in Garlaige Citidel so that you'd have a chance to find the treasure chest with your artifact armor in it - let alone a full party to tackle a battle that has a fairly high chance of ending in failure, as was the case with many Chains of Promathia fights.

Duty Finder is a godsend. It matches folks who need clears with folks willing to help out in exchange for rewards. The answer should never, ever be one that drives the mercenaries away, whether it be by reducing the rewards (less tomestones or a greater time investment) or by removing the roulette entirely. If you were to poll the average newbie, I think it is a VERY small percentage who would be content with days- or weeks-long party searches in exchange for getting the full cutscene experience. By far, the majority, whether happy with it or not, would prefer to clear the content in an afternoon, even if it means catching up in an inn.

That said, there ARE measures that SE could take to improve the situation. As some have said, a warning block informing newbies that it's an experience best enjoyed with friends rather than through Duty Finder would not be out of the question, or adding absurd rewards to players to ensure they are content to sit and wait while the cutscenes roll - but SE has already decided not to waste any more development time on this. Realistically, we need to decide how to live with what we have, and getting bitter about the status quo isn't going to help. Probably the best we can hope for is to use the Novice Network to inform new players of what they're getting into.

I do my best during runs to explain to people that are a bit bitter on people running ahead. As said before I had votes passed on people being over the top to the new players. In the end people turn to understanding when you explain to them people are not there to watch something they say 50 times that takes 1 hr to do so.

[LineageRazor]

Why are you going to these dungeons if not to help players with their story missions, delivered to them in the way the developers intended? What do you need so badly from these two dungeons that you can't get elsewhere? What is so important there that you simply must spoil the experience for newer players?

Poetics can be obtained elsewhere... and it's a darned good thing that people DO choose to do the Roulette, instead, whether they choose to speed run or not. I won't bother trying to guess what your experience with MMOs might be, but coming from FFXI, I can assure you that trying to put together a party to run content with little or no rewards for most of the participants is pretty horrendous. It was not at all unusual for it to take days of searching to gather enough people to progress through old content. Heck, it could take days just to find three people willing to take ten minutes out of their spare time to stand on a few buttons in Garlaige Citidel so that you'd have a chance to find the treasure chest with your artifact armor in it - let alone a full party to tackle a battle that has a fairly high chance of ending in failure, as was the case with many Chains of Promathia fights.

Duty Finder is a godsend. It matches folks who need clears with folks willing to help out in exchange for rewards. The answer should never, ever be one that drives the mercenaries away, whether it be by reducing the rewards (less tomestones or a greater time investment) or by removing the roulette entirely. If you were to poll the average newbie, I think it is a VERY small percentage who would be content with days- or weeks-long party searches in exchange for getting the full cutscene experience. By far, the majority, whether happy with it or not, would prefer to clear the content in an afternoon, even if it means catching up in an inn.

That said, there ARE measures that SE could take to improve the situation. As some have said, a warning block informing newbies that it's an experience best enjoyed with friends rather than through Duty Finder would not be out of the question, or adding absurd rewards to players to ensure they are content to sit and wait while the cutscenes roll - but SE has already decided not to waste any more development time on this. Realistically, we need to decide how to live with what we have, and getting bitter about the status quo isn't going to help. Probably the best we can hope for is to use the Novice Network to inform new players of what they're getting into.

[LalaRu]

The roulette is for players THAT CLEARED IT, to be rewarded for doing an otherwise useless content, so that others can CLEAR IT.

As long as you get a reward, don't be a douche to new players that looks at cutscenes.

[Skivvy]

As long as you get a reward, don't be a douche to new players that looks at cutscenes.

Most people aren't douches to sprouts, I think all is well

[Avatre]

Most people aren't douches to sprouts, I think all is well

Only when they start it and don't act like a sponge to all the helpful information people are willing to imprint on them.

[ArcanoJones]

If people want to watch cutscenes at the time that the dungeon is happening instead of later when it doesn't matter anymore then I feel it is very rude to expect them to run through the dungeon in a rush. If you are getting into PUGs then you are the one who should be aware that people may view cutscenes. And no there are not any cutscenes that last an hour. And just because you have watched it 50 times. A new person has not ever seen it at all. And it is about something that is happening now.Not back in the Inn.

[Mirateski]

Time to bring up ~Another MMO~, but I feel it's relevant, actually.

I was playing GW2 back when it was like, a couple of months before the first expac was released, and I got to the Final Dungeon, basically the equivalant of Castrum in Heavensward because of the way GW2 did dungeons (aka, weirdly). People in Orr, the area nearby, would shout for hours and wait in queue for a literal age for a party that never happened because people only ran the "post completion" dungeon options instead (because, for some reason, you only ran the story version once, then all the rewards were locked in the HM variant).

The final dungeon just simply. Would not queue. Without friends. Period. The response of the GW2 team?

They made it a single player instance.

Miracles.

[ArcanoJones]

I mean isn't that the point of the big reward. Nearly a full level if its a leveling roulette. You are being paid a very nice reward for grouping with new players. But then some expect not to let the new players actually enjoy that experience.

[Skivvy]

I mean isn't that the point of the big reward. Nearly a full level if its a leveling roulette. You are being paid a very nice reward for grouping with new players. But then some expect not to let the new players actually enjoy that experience.

What I don't understand is why people expect the veteran players to be selfless. Yes, those joining the roulette get either a tomes or exp reward, but the sprouts get the reward of clearing their MSQ dungeons without having to wait hours. Seeing that the majority of the game is locked behind the MSQ, that's a pretty sweet reward for them too. Hardly anyone would queue for these dungeons if they were forced to watch the CSs.

On the plus side, SE has learned from this heinous mistake and no longer includes 30+ minutes of CSs into their dungeons.