Tales from the Storm Discussion

[Lutefisk]

At no point in the story was Lyse arrogant or deluded about her abilities.

The parallel I draw with Alphinaud is not because of any perceived arrogance on Lyse's behalf. It's because that they both show inability to put themselves in the shoes of people who have had vastly different life experiences than them, something a leader ought to be able to do.

Alphinaud in his naivety assumed that all the people who rallied under his banner were doing it for the sake of some lofty idea of a better world like he did. He grew up without wanting for anything and the thought that someone would try to subvert his great plans for the sake of money didn't even cross his mind before it was too late. Anyone who wanted to put on the blue coat was invited to join with open arms and we know how that ended.

Lyse on the other hand is constantly deriding people who have lived their entire lives under Garlean rule who simply want to get by or even try to work with the system in place. We're never shown that she genuinely understands why they chose to do what they did. Even after Hien's pep talk the only thing she does when we confront Fordola in Castrum Abania is to scream her lungs out about what a bad terrible person she is.

It's her failure to understand people like Fordola that I see is going to become her undoing. And not just the kind people who are too young to remember the time before the Garleans but also those who are old enough to remember who it was that let them in.

[TinyRedLeaf]

The parallel I draw with Alphinaud is not because of any perceived arrogance on Lyse's behalf. It's because that they both show inability to put themselves in the shoes of people who have had vastly different life experiences than them, something a leader ought to be able to do.

I don't have any issue with your opinion of Lyse's capabilities, as we are all entitled to our own points of view.

What I am strenously objecting, however, is the failure of people to understand that the conclusions they draw are based on subjective interpretations of any given set of facts.

For example, I strongly disagree with your opinion that Lyse is constantly "deriding" people, and my own subjective conclusions are based on the same scenes that you draw your conclusions from. In Ala Gannha, yes, it's true that she displayed ignorance at first of how badly peoples had suffered after years of occupation and failed rebellions.

But you cannot deny that she also quickly realised the differences in her situation and those of the villagers. In fact, she felt badly about it, and that was one of the first major blows to her self-confidence, the question of whether she could even claim to fight as an Ala Mhigan. It was Meffrid who explained to her that what mattered was that she was now willing to fight for her people, and in that sense, she was no different from him, who was once also an "outsider".

I put it to you that your view of Lyse is biased in this case, which is why you view these facts under a very different light, compared to me.

So, in short, you're welcome to your opinion of Lyse's arrogance, as long as you're aware that the "facts" you rely on for your judgment are far from objective and universally true.

I wouldn't want to drag the discussion out further, but I would like to make one final point: There are many objections made against Lyse in this thread, and a good number of them fair and valid points. I would say, however, the one point I strongly oppose is the suggestion that the story should relied more on "showing than telling".

Frankly, if people who rely on this argument are not willing to confront and question their own biases to begin with, it's rather presumptuous to accuse a writer of not doing enough to "show". How would they account for the fact that I "got" what was "shown" to me, from the same scenes we watched, but they didn't? Does the fault really lie in the writing, or is it not more the case that, somehow, because of their different perspective, they didn't quite get what the writer was driving at?

Now, by making this argument, I'm not trying to insult other thread contributors. I'm just trying, as robustly as I can, to bring across a point that is often very hard to explain.

Having thought a bit more about it, I wonder if the root of the disagreement stems from the different ways we view and judge leadership. For those who come from a task-oriented culture, where measurable, quantifiable achievement is the preferred gauge of a leader's competency, it's perhaps no surprise then that Lyse would measure up very poorly in their judgment.

I happen to have a very different view about leadership. To me, character and intangible qualities are much more important. I find, from real-life experience, that those who demonstrate qualities like integrity, loyalty, a willingness to accept one's shortcomings, a determination to strive to overcome one's mistakes, these are the types of people who generally become good leaders in the long run. Competency as something that can be addressed with time and effort; character failings, on the other hand, are much harder to overcome, as it's akin to trying to change an individual's personality.

So, while it's true that Lyse didn't do the "heavy-lifting" for much of the story, that to me was always a secondary point. We have to wonder, in the first place, why people are willing to do for the "heavy-lifting" on her behalf. It's because they all believe in her, in the sincerity of her conviction, and in the truth of her determination to become a better person, worthy of the revolution.

Have none of you ever wondered, if Lyse were truly such a horrible person — as many of you seem to think she is — how did she come to have such friends who are willing to go through hell and high water for her?

There's an expression in real life that's worth mulling over: To judge a person, look at the company she keeps.

Can Lyse really be that bad, if the people around her, don't think so?

Well, maybe the critics would claim again that this is a failure in writing. But I'd like the critics to, one day perhaps, take a step back and re-look the situation with a fresh pair of eyes, and hopefully notice all it takes is a change of perspective, and you'll get a very different story.

[Shurrikhan]

Well, maybe the critics would claim again that this is a failure in writing. But I'd like the critics to, one day perhaps, take a step back and re-look the situation with a fresh pair of eyes, and hopefully notice all it takes is a change of perspective, and you'll get a very different story.

Ultimately, though, if that perspective is not in the majority from the outset, unless the writing somehow aims to be ambiguous or otherwise opaque, that is a failure in the writing. If you can manage a inbiased report over a large enough sample size, then there is your answer. Until then, subjective opinions will simply collide, and all either side can do is point out how a given conclusion could have been more clearly drawn by that writing on the assumption that it was intended.

[Alleo]

@TinyRedLeaf: Writers are not without faults so just because they have written her like that does not necessarily mean that its the best way to do so. Also I never said that she is a horrible person just that her character never felt that good to me. I simply dont care what happens to her and I simply cant see all the development she went through because they love to talk about this but not really show this. They never showed how she gives inspiration to others (no speeches for example), they never truly showed that she changed. As long as they dont show her change ingame I will have a very hard time with believing it.

In the end if a very big percentage of your players dislike a character even though you did not want that person to be seen that way..well then maybe they could have done a better job.

Alphinaud is also a character that some people dont like but you also have quite the amount of people that said that they disliked him at the beginning but thanks to HW they started to like him more. They did a (imo) wonderful job to show him changing.

In the end you post that others are biased about her thus wrong yet you completely ignore that everyone is biased about a character. This means you are too. You cant go around and say that your opinion is a fact because you see her in that way and say that others are just subjective opinions because they dont like her character. Nobody is truly objective, thus your view is also subjective. Its fine if you like her and see it different from us (and we did take the time to write what we dislike so its not some mindless hate posting) but it comes over a bit of condescending if you write it like you are right and us critics are wrong by default.

Also going around and say that just because in lore people like her thus she must be well written: I kinda remember a certain female main character from a certain vampire story that was somehow loved by a lot of people in the book itself..yet one could very well argue if that person is a well written character. One could be the worst possible person in the world but as long as the writer wants to have a certain story they will somehow still be liked. (You can be a complete jerk in Dragon Age 2 yet in the end the people will still love you most of the time)

And about your description about leadership: Lyse is not the only one like that. Naago for example fits that quite well too and unlike Lyse who went with the scions most of her life and only went to the rebellion because of the Uldah situation, she was with the rebellion a bit longer. I would say that for me Naago makes a way better choice as a leader. We even see it in the short story, that she remains skeptic about things, in game she is the one that motivates Conrad to go on and wasnt she also the one that wanted to use the glamour prism for the flag (not sure about this)? If they hadnt killed Meffrid he would have been a good leader too. Maybe this was even the reason to kill him...

In the end, SB did not really make me like Lyse and this happened to quite a bit of people. Does this mean that we are right? No. Yet it seems that maybe they had not written her that great either if a certain amount is not that certain about her role in the story. It remains to be seen, if they change this with the following patches or if it will remain a more tell not show development.

[Yuella]

Have none of you ever wondered, if Lyse were truly such a horrible person — as many of you seem to think she is — how did she come to have such friends who are willing to go through hell and high water for her?

I have a feeling the Scions stood by her because they respect Yda.

[LineageRazor]

There's some real potential for character development here. Despite what I said above, I'm actually a little curious about where Lyse goes next. She does seem to have a grasp of the daunting nature of the challenges ahead, but as of now, she's completely unsuited for a political leadership role. What happens to the Resistance when there's nothing for them to resist any more?

Setting aside discussion of Lyse for a moment, M'naago's inner monologue where she offhandedly dismisses the notion that liberated Ala Mhigo will be ruled by a king I felt was a very interesting and easily overlooked tidbit from this story. Sod that. We've had enough of kings. I doubt it's an uncommon sentiment, as the Mad King's reign was truly horrendous, by all accounts. Nevertheless, I guess at the back of my mind I fully expected that once Ala Mhigo was freed, they'd uncover some lost prince or princess and prop them up as ruler, and everything would be hunky dory. When I read this, however, it dawned on my how unlikely that was - and it also dawned on me that there's been nothing in the story so far to discuss just what they ARE planning to do in terms of a new government.

I suppose that the Resistance will be in charge for the time being while they finish rooting out the Garleans and make sure that the Empire isn't about to swoop back in and take back everything they've won, but I doubt anyone really is planning on the Resistance just settling in as the new permanent government. That said, when they DO choose a new leader for the country, it's not at all unlikely that they'll choose a prominent member of the liberators for the role, as has happened fairly regularly in real-life history, as well. I'm definitely curious to see what kind of government they plot out, now that monarchy is off the table, and who, if anyone, is going to sit at the head of that government.

If I had to pick, Raubahn seems the natural choice for a new political leader. He's no stranger to politics, he's extremely charismatic, he's Ala Mhigan by birth, and played a very prominent role in Ala Mhigo's liberation (albeit as the representative of another nation's army). He does have that troublesome berserk button, but said button takes some mighty extreme circumstances to push. Probably most troublesome, though, is that he almost certainly does not want the job - he's extremely attached to the Sultana, and it's unlikely that he'll ever leave his place by her side by choice.

Lyse may be the leader that the story is gearing up for, but I feel like she has a long way to go to earn that position - and even if she gets it, she'll need a lot of trusted help to be a competent one. She is, sadly, just not all that bright. There's no shame in that - we can't all be geniuses - but really, it's not a good trait to have in a leader. That said, it's still not an impossible or completely unreasonable outcome; even a smart leader will have advisors to cover her weaknesses, and if Lyse can pull a team together that can make up for her shortcomings, she could be a decent leader by way of the virtues she does possess (and by the virtues that she might cultivate over the next couple patches).

M'naago, I really don't see as taking up the role. She seems to me to be established as the "common soldier" viewpoint character, and while she's had some notable achievements, I don't see her ever getting much recognition by the people of Ala Mhigo beyond that of a common soldier. I also doubt she has any such ambitions, and would likely laugh if anyone were to make the suggestion that she lead the nation. On top of all that, while she's certainly an eager member of the resistance, as with the Ananta her loyalties are not with Ala Mhigo, but with her tribe. While they may all be brothers and sisters in arms against the Garleans, and may be harmonious neighbors once they are gone, I seriously doubt she has any plans of becoming an Ala Mhigan citizen, let alone their leader.

Conrad would likely have been a great choice as the leader, but, well, RIP.

Returning to the subject of Lyse...

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Yda's reveal as Lyse seemed pointless to me. It doesn't really bother me, but I also really don't see why SE felt it to be necessary. I can make a few guesses (to put her in Fordola's age range, for example, so they can be more obvious foils to one another), but guesses is all that they are. I was relieved that the transition did not change her personality. Frankly, I've never much liked Yda as a character, but to have her reveal herself as another person and then change her personality would have been cringey. If that was the path they were going to follow, I'd have much preferred they'd just killed her off along with Papalymo and had Lyse join the fold in some other manner. They didn't, though, so the current situation, while a bit baffling, is still okay.

Her "path to leadership" storyline throughout Stormblood was also okay. Not great, but okay. I could tell that they were making efforts to get Lyse aware of the fact that not all injustice can or should be tackled head-on, and while she rarely likes it, Lyse does seem to understand. Folks have been critical of Lyse's lack of impact during the Orthard part of the storyline, but this did not bother me. She was watching, and she was learning. It did not even seem like a contrivance that she should have been sent along; while it was true that she wound up having little to do, there's no way folks could have known that ahead of time. When they were deciding on resources to send along, there weren't any greater reasons to keep her in Ala Mhigo.

I certainly did have misgivings at the end, when she was given command of the resistance - but I think that the folks in the story are also aware that she's not exactly ripe, yet. No one was expecting Conrad to die, and he HAD selected Lyse to take over. I think everyone is keenly aware of how green Lyse is - Lyse herself included. However, she's got some pretty amazing connections (e.g., the Scions, the Alliance leaders, her Resistance friends), and since they pretty firmly seem to have her back I think she'll be all right until she grows into the position.

All in all, if the intent were for the developers to take a comic-relief side character like Yda and show how such a person would wind up becoming a leader, they could have done a lot worse. Granted, at the risk of sounding a bit crude, the whole scenario is a bit like polishing a turd, but I was still well enough entertained by it!

[Rosenoire]

Frankly, if people who rely on this argument are not willing to confront and question their own biases to begin with, it's rather presumptuous to accuse a writer of not doing enough to "show". How would they account for the fact that I "got" what was "shown" to me, from the same scenes we watched, but they didn't? Does the fault really lie in the writing, or is it not more the case that, somehow, because of their different perspective, they didn't quite get what the writer was driving at?

Alternately, if multiple people don't get what the author is aiming for, it's possible that the author did not succeed in conveying their intent.

Having thought a bit more about it, I wonder if the root of the disagreement stems from the different ways we view and judge leadership. For those who come from a task-oriented culture, where measurable, quantifiable achievement is the preferred gauge of a leader's competency, it's perhaps no surprise then that Lyse would measure up very poorly in their judgment.

"Show, don't tell" has nothing to do with coming from a "task-oriented culture". It's a writing maxim that's often overused, but there's some truth to the idea that it's more effective storytelling to say, "She clenched her fists and glared," rather than "She was furious." Both tell you about the character's state of mind, but the first paints a picture and lets the reader connect with the emotion. It helps flesh out a character. For me, that's what was missing from Lyse--she was kind of a flat character. Throughout most of the story, I was told that she had the potential to be a leader, but I rarely saw her demonstrate qualities like taking initiative and thinking strategically, or even giving a moving speech. Because we don't see her doing that, it's hard for me to accept that she's this amazing, inspirational figure, especially when compared with the other young leader we meet in the game.

Have none of you ever wondered, if Lyse were truly such a horrible person — as many of you seem to think she is — how did she come to have such friends who are willing to go through hell and high water for her?

Sorry, but that's a straw man. I haven't seen anyone say that Lyse is a horrible person. Saying that she's not a strong character, or that she has a number of negative qualities, or that she's not fleshed-out enough to carry the expansion as the NPC protagonist, is not the same as saying that the character is a horrible person.

However, I did wonder throughout the game why Conrad thought she'd make a good leader, aside from the symbolic value of being Curtis Hext's daughter and Yda Hext's sister. And I really, really wanted to see something in the game that would explain why people were willing to follow her. The story that's the nominal topic of this thread was huge for me, in terms of demonstrating Lyse's leadership capabilities--I just wish we'd gotten some of this backstory in game. It wouldn't even need to be a massive infodump. Instead of going around talking to Resistance members with a connection to the Warrior of Light, why don't we talk to M'Naago, Wicard, and someone else about how they see Lyse? Why don't we get to see her interacting with the residents of Ala Ghiri, reassuring them that the Resistance isn't going to destroy their lives, so we can see what she learned in Othard?

I know the FFXIV writers are capable of writing engaging characters. They managed to make me like the Wesley Crusher of Eorzea--Alphinaud--because I got to see the changes in how he interacted with people over the course of 3.0. They've conveyed the WoL's developing PTSD without the character being voiced. And again, we get a lot of her development in the side story. I just feel that if you're decide that Stormblood is about Lyse's personal journey, I need to see that journey during the course of the story, rather than just being told "Trust us, she's grown up."

[Belhi]

Lyse has actively been a Scion for 6 years. This was for me the important detail from my character's perspective. My WoL, indeed any WoL, would have never met Yda. For all the false names, Lyse has been a comrade to the other Scions for a decent length of time at this point. Also remember that Lyse would have grown up knowing quite a few of them, if not well. She certainly would have known Y'shtola since Y'shtola was a close friend of the original Yda.

As Y'shtola says at the end, she is a comrade. She has long since earned her stripes in that regard.

[Rosenoire]

Her "path to leadership" storyline throughout Stormblood was also okay. Not great, but okay. I could tell that they were making efforts to get Lyse aware of the fact that not all injustice can or should be tackled head-on, and while she rarely likes it, Lyse does seem to understand. Folks have been critical of Lyse's lack of impact during the Orthard part of the storyline, but this did not bother me. She was watching, and she was learning. It did not even seem like a contrivance that she should have been sent along; while it was true that she wound up having little to do, there's no way folks could have known that ahead of time. When they were deciding on resources to send along, there weren't any greater reasons to keep her in Ala Mhigo.

It's not so much that it was a contrivance to send her along for me, as it was that she was outshone by the other NPC's.

That might not matter, except that Stormblood is clearly intended to be her story, and yet she's remarkably passive through the entire middle chunk of it. If I'd been able to see Lyse doing leadery things in Othard, I might have been less taken aback by Conrad deciding she should be his successor.

I certainly did have misgivings at the end, when she was given command of the resistance - but I think that the folks in the story are also aware that she's not exactly ripe, yet. No one was expecting Conrad to die, and he HAD selected Lyse to take over.

Well, no one in the story. As soon as Conrad tells the WoL that he wants Lyse to succeed him, he might as well have killed himself, because he obviously wasn't going to last until the next dungeon. If Stormblood were a movie being cast 10 years ago, he'd totally be played by Liam Neeson, a la Qui-Gon. I know tropes exist for reasons, but that was really heavy handed, IMO.

[Rosenoire]

Lyse has actively been a Scion for 6 years. This was for me the important detail from my character's perspective. My WoL, indeed any WoL, would have never met Yda. For all the false names, Lyse has been a comrade to the other Scions for a decent length of time at this point. Also remember that Lyse would have grown up knowing quite a few of them, if not well. She certainly would have known Y'shtola since Y'shtola was a close friend of the original Yda.

As Y'shtola says at the end, she is a comrade. She has long since earned her stripes in that regard.

My Wol barely knew her, either as Lyse or Yda. I didn't play 1.0, and I started in Limsa. I may be forgetting something, but the only quest I can remember where Yda and Papylymo were the main Scion contact was the Sylphs, way back when I was level 25. My WoL has probably spoken with Urianger more than he did with Y&P. Of course, the fact that they're absent until late in 3.4 doesn't help. They're not there for all of the painful and triumphant moments that take place in Ishgard. Having Yda offstage for the majority of the Heavensward expansion made it even harder for me to care about the big reveal. The fact that Yda was really Lyse had no emotional punch because it just replaced one character I didn't know with one who was just as much of a cipher.