Tales from the Storm Discussion

[Alleo]

Well liking a character will always be subjective. I mean I love Alphinaud and his development but there are many people that still hate him. Different tastes for different people.

I dislike Lyse because first there was more "tell" and less "show" with her and secondly she took our hard work and put herself in the first line.

We are told how she changed through the story and that she would be a great leader and would inspire other people, yet we never truly see it in a believable way. After she was appointed the leader she already tried to act stupid by wanting to go on a mission alone..I just facepalmed a little at that moment because I truly asked myself why not someone like Naago would be made leader? Also the only place she inspired someone (as far as I can remember) was at the very beginning with the new recruits in her hometown. Yet this was not only because of Lyse but because everyone helped the people in that town, while Lyse was throwing a bit of a hissy fit at "her" people not wanting to go to war after all they have been through. Sadly I saw no true change in that view at the end of 4.0. She did not make a great speech towards the soldiers, she did not plan anything at all and at the very end she did not even defeat the big bads. All the hard work and plans were mostly done by Raubahn and us. Heck it was Alphinaud together with the WoL that talked the Lupins out of it and it was Conrad that tried to talk Fordolas underlings out of further attacking.

I really hope that if we see her much more in SB that they will mature her a bit. Because I cant just see someone like her leading a rebellion after the war. Because being an inspiration (which was at least not shown ingame) is not enough to rebuild a torn city.

It might be nice to see more insight in such tales outside the game but one should show such things ingame too. We have the echo as a great way of looking into the past so I am a bit disappointed that it was not truly used much.

Anyway I am kinda curious who we will get for the rest of the stories. Hien is probably in one and I am looking forward to read about him.

[Belhi]

Lyse is supposed to be someone who can act as a figurehead and someone who can represent all the different people in Ala Mhigo. Do remember there are a lot of Resistance groups, plus the beast tribes and all the citizens including those previously working for the Garleans, who are going to have to come to the table and agree. Lyse is the daughter of a cultural hero, who represents both those Ala Mhigans that have lived outside Ala Mhigo while still showing a connection to those living within. She shows care for all Ala Mhigans, is passionate and leads from the front, which given Ala Mhigan culture, is probably something that would be highly respected.

Good leaders don't need to be great strategists or even warriors though Lyse is certainly above average. They just need to be someone with vision, the confidence to lead and someone people trust enough to follow. M'Naago had the skills but she isn't someone all Ala Mhigans can rally behind and that is what is really needed. Lyse doesn't need to come up with everything. She just needs to be able to get everyone to talk and work things out together. That was the whole reason behind Conrad's decision. Lyse was someone others beyond just his own people might be willing to accept to guide them to a new Ala Mhigo.

Secondly I wouldn't say its fair to say she took credit for our hard work. The WoL gets gushed over constantly. Hell someone even makes a comment about how we must be getting pretty sick of it by now.

[Naria]

The problem I have with Lyse is that they have yet to show a reason that a) justifies the retcon that created her and b) the poor build up to the reveal of Lyse. All of the arguments for Lyse being a good leader/figurehead would have been equally applicable to Yda. Yda would have been more qualified actually, since she would have grown up in Ala Mhigo and would have had more experience both there and abroad. While Yda was one of the oldest of the Scions, she was also one of the least developed so the writers would have had plenty of room to develop her character over the course of Stormblood. The only reason I can come up with for Lyse's existence is that they wanted that character to be very young (not just younger, because Yda would have been younger than Conrad) and really Lyse being twenty something has yet to play any significant role in the story besides letting them draw vague parallels with her, Hien and Fordola or something something the Next Generation. Maybe that will change in the upcoming patches but . . .

Lyse's entire character begins with her very jarringly being inserted into the plot from above; there was no real foreshadowing. Yes, there was that bit with the mask in 2.55 but all that really says is that the mask had significance to her, instead they should have combined it with Moen commenting on how "Yda" had become forgetful and didn't remember any of their old shared memories or how drastically she had changed etc. Instead Moen's relationship with Yda just reaffirmed that Yda was who she and the other Scion's said she was. We knew something was up with Yda but there wasn't really any build up to Yda not actually being Yda. Not doing so failed to transfer any attachment built up towards Yda to Lyse which Stormblood, for me at least, has so far failed to rebuild. With Alisae her development and relationship with the player character has grown organically but Lyse was inserted into this weird position where we do know her but also don't. Where she isn't Yda but the narrative is trying to build off of our attachment to Yda and our character's comradery with "Yda". I'm in a minority, but Yda and Papalymo have always held a special place for me since I saw them fall off that airship when I started in Gridania in 1.0. With the Lyse/Yda retcon I feel that a character that I liked was suddenly switched with someone else entirely but *waves hand* she's always been this other person you just didn't know so you still care about her right?

Anyways, I'm glad the "Tales from . . ." series is back and while this story didn't suddenly make me change my stance on Lyse I'm looking forward to what's to come.

[Draxis_Fallspear]

Naria hits it on the head. I had the same problem. It felt like this whole expansion was supposed to be about this character's development. But we don't know this person. She wasn't being herself when she was Yda, and she wasn't Yda either. So it's like pressing the reset button and forced them to establish a character while developing it at the same time. Which absolutely didn't work for me. She's also randomly shocked about the division within Ala Migho, but she's been there throughout HW so I'm not quite sure why she's still acting so shocked by people's attitudes.

Honestly, I'm pretty annoyed with the whole Scion situation. They should've just left them dead after 2.55. I mean, they might as well be dead anyway:

1- Y'Shtola: Only exception. She hasn't really changed much. But her sight makes her a ticking time bomb, so who knows.
2- Thancred: His character has completely changed. Apparently, losing Minfillia made him go from George Clooney to Clint Eastwood on us. I think they actually managed to make him less interesting than he was.
3- Minfillia: Gone to another world.
4- Papalymo: Dead
5- Yda: Was never really Yda to start with. Lyse isn't the person we knew as Yda. She might as well just be another rando.

[Alleo]

@Belhi: But sadly I just cant see her as someone that brings different people together because for me the game did not show enough that she is capable of that. I mean for someone that should be an inspiration she never truly did a big speech to raise the motivation of the people before the fight. And even in Doma she still could not understand that people might not go into a rebellion after all the things they went through. She captures Fordola and wants to prove her that we can make Ala Mhigo free but can she truly understand the view from Fordola? It the end its just too much tell not enough show for me. And seeing how she still acted so reckless after getting the leader position..well the show that we got was not that great either.

I am not saying that I hate this character but she really did nothing much for me. And next to people like Alisaie she just pales even more.

At the same time I just cant see the reveal of her not being Yda as good. The character never met the real Yda anyway and everyone else already knew it and was fine with that..how great would it have been if we lost Yda after the bloody banquette and found out that Papalymo met her younger sister in Rhalgrs reach afterwards who then took over her identity. That would be one big reveal and it would give them the chance to already have a character that was with the resistance for quite the time. Or let her stay Yda and let her be a older woman who at least knew the people in her hometown so that it would feel way more emotional when she gets back. But this kind of reveal did nothing to me thus I might not be that hooked to her character anyway. (And a big point for Yda was always her team work with Papalymo since they were perfect for each other and this is kinda missing too.)

Just to write my own points, I am fine if someone sees her different because in the end its just subjective anyway. And I do hope that they will do more with her so that she grows more like able for me.

[TinyRedLeaf]

While there are certainly specifics in each contrary post I could endlessly discuss, I will just try to keep it general, so as not to derail the entire thread.

In short, I can accept and appreciate the many objections raised about the portrayal of Lyse as a character. But ultimately, I can't help but feel that most of these objections miss the forest for the trees.

Or, to put it another way, Lyse is to many of you naysayers what the cameo appearance of a certain actor was to many viewers of Season 7 Episode 2 of Game of Thrones.

Possible GoT S7 spoilers (and also because the following rant is only tangentially relevant to Stormblood).

As someone who had absolutely no knowledge of the actor and his accomplishments outside of his cameo appearance, I went through the entire episode blithely unaware of what the fuss was all about.

In fact, I actually liked the scene, because of how it humanised the common soldier in the Lannister army. And I thought the actor actually did quite well, bringing home the fact that, in the end, the soldier on the opposite end of the battlefield was really not that much different from his counterpart on the other end.

But many of those who went into the episode fully aware of who the actor is, were unable to dis-associate the character from the person in real-life. And, to these viewers, the cameo was distracting, and ruined the episode for them.

What can I say? It wasn't a problem for me, but it was a problem for others. My life experience is different from theirs, and that affected the way all of us approached the story.

Chalk it up, then, to subjective opinion.

But in that case, to what extent is the criticism fair? To me, it's completely unfair, especially not when an actor is trying his best to play a role. We could criticise his competency as an actor. That's fair game. But, to me, it seems grossly unfair to say he's a mistake simply because you, the viewer, can't ignore who he is in real-life, and are therefore unable to judge his acting on its own merits.

The failure, to me, is with the viewer, not in the acting, not in the casting, and certainly not with the script.

You see, to me, all this criticism about Lyse, while understandable, misses the point of how she grew as a person throughout Stormblood.

If Lyse became a completely different person simply after dropping her mask, both literally and figuratively, then perhaps I too would have had issues with the plot ret-con.

Ironically, all this criticism against her lies at the heart of why I found her portrayal throughout Stormblood to be consistent and believable: Lyse as Lyse was equally as ditzy and air-headed as when Lyse was "Yda".

These bumbling qualities — which, to many of you, disqualify her as a leader — are, to me, a crucial plot point, because it shows that Lyse didn't suddenly become competent overnight.

In fact, she stayed relatively incompetent, when compared to the other Scions and Lord Hien (as we can see from this side-story, Lyse, on her own, is actually far above average when compared to the average Eorzean; she just happens to be overshadowed by the illustrious company she keeps, and this lies at the heart of her lack of self-confidence).

This, to me, is keeping in character with who Lyse was, and it didn't strain my ability to suspend disbelief, unlike with so many of her critics.

And because I wasn't distracted by all the legacy baggage that others have attached to her, I felt I was better able to appreciate who she really was, now that finally she allowed herself to act in her own capacity. And what I saw impressed me.

As I said, the point about justice is critical to me. No one else in the story, save Lyse, realised its importance to how Ala Mhigo will move on after its liberation. It mattered to the Scions, even as war veterans like Raubahn and Hien casually brushed it away, as though the circumstances of Zenos' death were just an afterthought.

This quality alone makes Lyse a vital character to me, and it's one of the most important reasons I like her as a character throughout the story.

[Alleo]

In short, I can accept and appreciate the many objections raised about the portrayal of Lyse as a character. But ultimately, I can't help but feel that most of these objections miss the forest for the trees.

You see, to me, all this criticism about Lyse, while understandable, misses the point of how she grew as a person throughout Stormblood.

If Lyse became a completely different person simply after dropping her mask, both literally and figuratively, then perhaps I too would have had issues with the plot ret-con.

Ironically, all this criticism against her lies at the heart of why I found her portrayal throughout Stormblood to be consistent and believable: Lyse as Lyse was equally as ditzy and air-headed as when Lyse was "Yda".

These bumbling qualities — which, to many of you, disqualify her as a leader — are, to me, a crucial plot point, because it shows that Lyse didn't suddenly become competent overnight.

In fact, she stayed relatively incompetent, when compared to the other Scions and Lord Hien (as we can see from this side-story, Lyse, on her own, is actually far above average when compared to the average Eorzean; she just happens to be overshadowed by the illustrious company she keeps, and this lies at the heart of her lack of self-confidence).

This, to me, is keeping in character with who Lyse was, and it didn't strain my ability to suspend disbelief, unlike with so many of her critics.

And because I wasn't distracted by all the legacy baggage that others have attached to her, I felt I was better able to appreciate who she really was, now that finally she allowed herself to act in her own capacity. And what I saw impressed me.

As I said, the point about justice is critical to me. No one else in the story, save Lyse, realised its importance to how Ala Mhigo will move on after its liberation. It mattered to the Scions, even as war veterans like Raubahn and Hien casually brushed it away, as though the circumstances of Zenos' death were just an afterthought.

The problem is, that since she still stayed a lot like Yda I just saw no reason for why they suddenly decided to use that "plot twist". I did not play 1.0 and I started in Limsa thus I never had much to do with Yda and Papalymo. Even through ARR and HW the two of them never really got much character development and other than them being a dream team I had no further connections to them. So Papalymos death did not do much for me. Lyse reveal did even less to me. It just did not make much sense to do that since everyone from the older scions already knew it and did not care and we never met the real Yda anyway. Yet suddenly someone that in my opinion was never truly fleshed out and only entertains me together with Papalymo was made the main character. We never got memories from her past, we never saw her doing great stuff for the rebellion. I mean Naago was the one that motivated Conrad to still fight after the bloodbath in the reach.

Also she was just so utterly reckless and angry for a very big part of SB, so I could not believe the change at the very end. Was it not for Meffrid and other characters she would have undone quite a lot of work. (Like wanting to help that person being beat up even after everyone tells her that this would mean even more suffering for everyone and maybe even death.) It would be fine if they had shown over time that she changed but she never did that in my eyes. At the very end she still stayed the same person she was from the beginning just that she was suddenly wearing that red dress (which is not even good for battle..) and was appointed leader by conrad. Ingame we do not know about the stuff she did while staying there in HW, which is my problem with the "show" part.

She might grow into this role over time but lets be honest, in a true battle (without the plot armor of the WoL) you would want someone as the leader that is not only an inspiration but also great at this stuff. (IMO) Someone like Raubahn who makes all the plans and even the speeches. Because inspiration alone will not win a battle, especially not against an army that is normally way too strong for them. (Zenos was the sole reason that we even got a chance) They could have at least played the inspiration part a bit better and showed us her growing. Instead of her wanting to rush of after being appointed a leader, they could have shown her first wanting to suggest it but then realizing her important role and thus she could have appointed someone else to do it. That would be a good growth imo. They could have shown her being more considerate with people so that she would not verbally attack the villagers in Doma because she finally understood the situation of these people. Yet as much as I can remember, she still argued about their position and in the end it was Yugiri and the WoL that changed the hearts of them. Also let her give a big speech before the attack to show the side of her being an inspiration. Yet the focus was Raubahn all over again.

Only at the end after the WoL did most of the work again, she takes the leading role and stands in front of everyone, yet we were never shown what she even did in Ala Mhigo to deserve the first row completely alone. At least after all that the WoL have done for the rebellion, they should have stood next to her. This also did not make her endearing for me, even though I knew that this was a decision by SE.

TinyRedLeaf in the end everyone likes someone out of subjective taste and I am not sure if its so nice to say that people just cant appreciate her because we have some legacy baggage or something. We just might have wished for more development. And still being incompetent does not make her a great leader imo.

I am fine if she grows into this but only if they show us the growth and not make it "tell" only again.

Also I am not really understanding the talk about justice. Were was it shown that she cares much more about justice than anyone else? Could you give some examples because right now I have a hard time of really understanding that point. Hien for example wanted a better doma so he also cared about the aftermath of the battle. I am also quite sure that someone like Raubahn who was on the side of her father and being part of a leading position for a time will also know the importance of the rebuilding.

@Rosenoire: Damn you have already written everything down so nicely. Its exactly how I feel about her and even the tales did not truly make her that much better for me since it was mostly from the view of the others. I do like Naago and Meffrid even more since I felt that those two were worth the title of leader, especially Meffrid..but then he was just killed off like that. V_V

In the end I am not so sure if it was a good decision to make so many other side characters like Alisaie and Hien that outshine her, if you want to make her look like the main character of SB.

[Grayve]

I don't watch Game of Thrones, but I am not sure how being unable to separate an actors current role from his previous work relates to the lack of being shown Lyse's growth, or even why we needed Lyse to be Lyse, not Yda?

[Lutefisk]

Chiming in as one of those people who were not particularly impressed with Lyse, I have to say that it's not her role in Stormblood that I took issue with but her role in Final Fantasy XIV.

The same story that dedicated an entire patch series to show what exactly happens when someone whose only qualifications for being a leader is their familial relation to some famous person is put in charge of things now expects me to believe that those events won't come to pass again when the mistake is repeated. Everything about the situation screams that we're headed towards another Crystal Braves fiasco with Lyse playing the role of Alphinaud and this time Lolorito won't be there to bail us out.

I want to like Lyse, I really do, but I can't bring myself to do it until that looming shoe has dropped.

[FJerome]

I really feel like Lyse stepped into a role that was originally written for Minfilia, which is why she got ret-conned into someone so close to Minfilia personality-wise and with such a similar backstory (both Ala Mhigan refugees, both daughters of prominent Resistance members).