RDM's Vercure should be removed or heavily nerfed

[Kabooa]

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...gregate=amount
Yea, RDM is completely OP. /s.

I'd say being 5% within the pure cannon class while having relative raid safety, recovery options, and the ability to boost your physical comrades (Which effectively adds 1% of Paladin, Warrior/Dark, Ninja, and Monk/Sam to your final tally) puts it in a very good spot, yeah.

Statistics without context are one of the most damning ways to present information.

I should clarify: Vercure is fine.

[Allyrion]

I'd say being 5% within the pure cannon class while having relative raid safety, recovery options, and the ability to boost your physical comrades (Which effectively adds 1% of Paladin, Warrior/Dark, Ninja, and Monk/Sam to your final tally) puts it in a very good spot, yeah.

Statistics without context are one of the most damning ways to present information.

I should clarify: Vercure is fine.

Did you not read the part where I said it was close to BRD which has even more support and raid damage buffs?
That's my point, it's balanced because it's personal dps is down where it should be for the utility and raid dps that it gives.

I'm also replying to a guy who said that RDM facerolls everyone else's damage. So yes, context is important.

Not sure what PoTD has to do with this post.

I don't think it's "I hate RDM" but people want balance where each class feels more viable. ie Class Balance. If one class has a lot more reasons to be around due to punishment/reward for playing the class other people tend to go into hyperbole about a class being "garbage/trash" or "don't bring it to raid".

Job design and balance shouldn't be affected by community ignorance or knee-jerk reactions. That said, I agree with the outliers being brought up. But that's just SMN, MCH and DRG-ish now.

All the other Jobs bring enough to justify their spot even considering how mechanics punish them. If any Job is bloated, it's BRD (definitely) and maybe NIN. But no one is complaining about BRD, nor should they, cause its considered support while still only doing 100 dps less than RDM. Its support doesn't hurt its dps at all (unlike RDM) and it might have timers to monitor but no one thinks BRD is really hindered by mechanics compared to most.

RDM is part support part caster. BLM is like a caster version of SAM and since 4.05, you can bring it over a RDM and it'll make up for the lack of support with raw damage. SMN just needs to be brought up to be a bit under BLM.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

(Which effectively adds 1% of Paladin, Warrior/Dark, Ninja, and Monk/Sam to your final tally)

It's .125% of each of their dps. The total raid contribution of Embolden maxes out at .75% with 3 physical DPS. It's not remotely as important as people seem to believe it is and really needs to stop being used as an argument tool.

[Kabooa]

It's .125% of each of their dps. The total raid contribution of Embolden maxes out at .75% with 3 physical DPS. It's not remotely as important as people seem to believe it is and really needs to stop being used as an argument tool.

May I see your reference on the math for this?

It's 16% uptime on an average of 6% physical damage increase for up to 5 other people. Which puts it at 1% of, using a standard meta comp, MOnk/Sam, Nin, Bard, and Warrior, and 1% of Paladin if it's done during FoF windows (which it may not be, so admittedly lower)

Taking into account just Samurai/Monk, Ninja, and Bard, is around 130-140 on top of what Red Mage parses show in high percentiles.

Which puts them close to Black Mage in terms of bottom line.

Embolden isn't utility. It's damage. It's perfectly acceptable to include it as a point of reference when pointing out inequities in actual Utility (like Raise).

[PrismaticDaybreak]

snip

Multiplying the 16%(well it's more like 1/6) and the 6% gives you the flat contribution of Embolden to rDPS. Divide the resulting number by 8, as that is the size of a full party. Reduce it by 2 partitions since 2 members are healers and don't do physical damage. Dividing the remainder by 6 equals .125% contribution per physical attacker to the rDPS increase of Embolden. Meaning the maximum amount of rDPS contribution you will ever get out of Embolden is a .75% increase. No it doesn't make up for the 2-400 DPS the most BLMs are ahead of most RDMs by, it barely hits 120 extra DPS to the RDM if you use the 1% figure, still not a relevant argument choice.

My math may be incorrect or some percents aren't where they should be, if it is, que sera sera. I haven't had to do intensive math for a couple years and I can't find the spreadsheet i calculated this out on.

[Kabooa]

My math may be incorrect or some percents aren't where they should be, if it is, que sera sera. I haven't had to do intensive math for a couple years and I can't find the spreadsheet i calculated this out on.

Working through it, it makes sense, but we're basically saying the same amount, you just said it while including detail for the entire raid (My own left out healers and the Red Mage: Your target was 8, mine was 5)

However, .75% of 20,000 is still approximately 150 that belongs to the Red Mage, which must be added to their bottom line. That's why it's fairgame to consider. Embolden is damage, not utility.

Using those figures on 95th percentile bosses, where Black Mages range from 4200-4700, and Red Mages from 4200-4400, adding 150 of that to their rating puts them on similar levels, to the point where there's no true advantage of the Black Mage unless we move into caster heavy set ups, which don't really have the support that physical do. It's worth noting that going down in percentiles shows the natural gap closing before applying the 'Embolden' tax.

I need to be clear that I'm fine with damage of jobs being comparable all around, with the minimum being within their roles. But in the scenarios where this is the case, each Job should be bringing some form of non-damage/ mitigation utility. Just giving 'more damage' is a lazy and uninteresting way to fix things, because that just shifts around who's useful when.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Ah, so kinda sorta parallel thinking then. But still it's irritating seeing it as an argument piece for people who haven't done the math i.e. the average player/forum poster and don't understand the implications of what they're spouting.

[Kabooa]

Agreed, there's always accounting for player error, or just points where it may not be possible to get a good use of embolden. Situational scenarios though, the variables scale so much we have to take the average when looking at things, because otherwise you get Warriors and Ravana all over again.

Vercure is fine as is, on the topic of the thread though. In terms of equitable Black Mage utility, another discussion pointed towards Mana Shift as something that inherently is superior for the Black mage to utilize, and that it could be something removed from Role Utility and balanced around a Black Mage providing another person with MP.

That would provide tactical uses, from giving Healers a top off, to giving the Bard more Foe uptime, to feeding other casters so they can push harder (like Summoners and Ruin 3)