Tenacity proven better? (BiS for tanks?) Gear Stat Calc

[Yorumi]

Overall when you look at the difference DH will account for the equivalent of 1 more GCD on the tank. Ten will account for about 1 more gcd on the healer. All that when you're in BIS with the content on total farm status. In a lot of cases is actually probably a wash overall. I feel like priorities are a bit out of whack when we're talking about sacrificing mitigation for possibly no gain, and only when it's on farm status for everyone.

[RLofOBFL]

I already presented data about how it would have helped in a fight, you've posted nothing but saying my argument was going against basic logic, yet asked for more data. If you want me to provide more data, give me some data to reply to. Just asking for more data from me to try to nit pick it doesn't help your case. SHOW ME I'm wrong, show me you're right.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.red...talk_tenacity/

[Sarcatica]

Whatever it may be, Tenacity still falls into passive mitigation. If you think that 5% extra mitigation is going to amount to anything, think again because that's really not how heals work. There is a reason why top raiding tanks still stick to full DH melds. We can leave it at that.

[Shinkyo]

Whatever it may be, Tenacity still falls into passive mitigation. If you think that 5% extra mitigation is going to amount to anything, think again because that's really not how heals work. There is a reason why top raiding tanks still stick to full DH melds. We can leave it at that.

Sheesh, so because the top taid tank don't use it (which isn't entirely true) it's useless?
I guess every raid group better do O4S solo heal only because it's been proven that a second healer is useless...

[DacienSanderon]

Whatever it may be, Tenacity still falls into passive mitigation. If you think that 5% extra mitigation is going to amount to anything, think again because that's really not how heals work. There is a reason why top raiding tanks still stick to full DH melds. We can leave it at that.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that being a top raiding tank has little relevance to whether you are making the right gear choice, especially if that choice is conpletely negligible. We are talking about such miniscule amounts that they could meld crit or skill speed or determination and it wouldn't matter. They are just going with the gung-ho bandwagon choice and thinking how awesome it makes their parse look. Or more likely, they don't give that much of a crap because they know tiny gear differences don't make or break the fight compared to skillful play.

[whiskeybravo]

I already presented data about how it would have helped in a fight, you've posted nothing but saying my argument was going against basic logic, yet asked for more data. If you want me to provide more data, give me some data to reply to. Just asking for more data from me to try to nit pick it doesn't help your case. SHOW ME I'm wrong, show me you're right.

Not really, I said the problem can occur, not that your argument was invalidated by logic. Nor did I ask for more data, I simply mentioned that you did not include any real data yourself for that scenario yet can somehow "guarantee" tenacity gave you more benefit than direct hit. So go ahead and prove that, if you'd like.

But, I don't need you to do that for I can deduce that no amount of tenacity or direct hit is going to A) make healers heal quicker, B) Make DPS handle the mechanics correctly or C) reduce fatigue. Which is, according to the story, why you failed to clear. Correct?

Here's another way of looking at dps optimization. The tanks optimize to achieve an extra 2% damage. (4% total). The DPS optimize to achieve an extra 2% damage. (8% total). You're now looking at 12% higher raid damage than a non-optimized group. These are arbitrary numbers ofc but the point is you can't just look at 1 tank optimizing and say it doesn't matter, it can matter a significant amount if everyone chooses to optimize. That's why it's done. Additionally, many different strategies and tactics are employed to increase raid damage, not just gear optimization. So the selection of DH over Tenacity (or whatever stat happens to contribute to higher dps) is a logical extension of optimization as a whole. As others have mentioned, at this point the mitigation is not significant enough to actually allow you to drop a cd or spend a longer amount of time in dps stance, so there's little benefit in maximizing it right now. Futhermore, there's no evidence Tenacity is going to scale infinitely, 20% DR sounds great but what if it caps at 12%? Or less? We don't know how they'll keep it in balance moving forward so you shouldn't base a current argument on future expectations.

There is one area I'll slightly agree with you on, and that's the constant damage increase vs the rng of direct or critical hits. Nothing chaps me more than getting everything lined up for a FC spam window, potion popped, and then not a single damn crit or direct hit lol. But I'd have to imagine the law of averages shakes this out in the long run.

[Shinkyo]

Snip

Yes, what matters is everyone in the raid group to put their best foot forward and if Tenacity only brought DPS gain to the table at a lower contribution than the other stats, we wouldn't be having that discussion.
I'm personally in a midcore group, ranging within 80-90% percentile (so not great but not bad either), and everyone is trying their best to push their DPS. My healers are pretty greedy too.
Tenacity is something I've discussed among my healers and they both asked that I stack Tenacity as, as little mitigation as it is, they still saw value in it (and so did I).
Bottom line, increasing my passive mitigation at a small DPS loss is my way of putting my best foot forward within my group.
In truth, I intend to switch to a more DPS oriented build later on when we have V4S on farm and we overgear the min ilvl.

[whiskeybravo]

Tenacity is something I've discussed among my healers and they both asked that I stack Tenacity as, as little mitigation as it is, they still saw value in it (and so did I)..

But the point is you can, and most likely will, still have modest amounts of tenacity while melding DH. Most people aren't even going to be able to build a set minimizing tenacity any time soon to prove any of these mathematical estimations, and you'll never get rid of tenacity if you want to use crafted accessories. So, that's why I'm just staying in the middle of road, not going to avoid tenacity but there's no real reason to meld a ton of it either.

[MauvaisOeil]

Not really, I said the problem can occur, not that your argument was invalidated by logic. Nor did I ask for more data, I simply mentioned that you did not include any real data yourself for that scenario yet can somehow "guarantee" tenacity gave you more benefit than direct hit. So go ahead and prove that, if you'd like.

But, I don't need you to do that for I can deduce that no amount of tenacity or direct hit is going to A) make healers heal quicker, B) Make DPS handle the mechanics correctly or C) reduce fatigue. Which is, according to the story, why you failed to clear. Correct?

Here's another way of looking at dps optimization. The tanks optimize to achieve an extra 2% damage. (4% total). The DPS optimize to achieve an extra 2% damage. (8% total). You're now looking at 12% higher raid damage than a non-optimized group. These are arbitrary numbers ofc but the point is you can't just look at 1 tank optimizing and say it doesn't matter, it can matter a significant amount if everyone chooses to optimize. That's why it's done. Additionally, many different strategies and tactics are employed to increase raid damage, not just gear optimization. So the selection of DH over Tenacity (or whatever stat happens to contribute to higher dps) is a logical extension of optimization as a whole. As others have mentioned, at this point the mitigation is not significant enough to actually allow you to drop a cd or spend a longer amount of time in dps stance, so there's little benefit in maximizing it right now. Futhermore, there's no evidence Tenacity is going to scale infinitely, 20% DR sounds great but what if it caps at 12%? Or less? We don't know how they'll keep it in balance moving forward so you shouldn't base a current argument on future expectations.

There is one area I'll slightly agree with you on, and that's the constant damage increase vs the rng of direct or critical hits. Nothing chaps me more than getting everything lined up for a FC spam window, potion popped, and then not a single damn crit or direct hit lol. But I'd have to imagine the law of averages shakes this out in the long run.

Hell no. If everyone achieve a 2% increase in DPS, the raid DPS in only 2% higher.

Even if it can translate into less than 16% of ONE player DPS.

[Sarcatica]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that being a top raiding tank has little relevance to whether you are making the right gear choice, especially if that choice is conpletely negligible. We are talking about such miniscule amounts that they could meld crit or skill speed or determination and it wouldn't matter. They are just going with the gung-ho bandwagon choice and thinking how awesome it makes their parse look. Or more likely, they don't give that much of a crap because they know tiny gear differences don't make or break the fight compared to skillful play.

Doesn't explain why ALL top raiding tanks do it. Come back again to provide better examples.