Tenacity proven better? (BiS for tanks?) Gear Stat Calc

[Freyyy]

Tenacity is still inferior in terms of damage, but that doesn't mean that you must avoid any piece of gear with tenacity on it. It's not like parry which was a completely dead stat, here, tenacity still gives damage, so it's possible that a piece of gear with tenacity on it could actually outweight a piece of gear of the same ilvl with other stats on it depending on which stats it is. I don't know the stat weights for instance but I'm pretty sure that skill speed is still not very good, and crit for instance is not that great since we can't get a number high enough for it to outweight DH, and DH isn't on our gear outside of melding. A piece of gear with det + tenacity for example might outweight a piece of gear with SS + crit or something along those lines. But we'd have to do some very precise maths to properly calculate that. Other than that, melding should go full DH, regardless of how much of the other stats your gear gives you (until maybe the point where crit will outweight DH of course).

Tenacity could become an excellent stat if the extra mitigation gets to a point where it can make you change your CD rotation or considerably reduce the strain on healers. Like, if we get to 20% mitigation from tenacity alone, you won't ever need tanking stance anymore and in fights where you already don't need it at all even without tenacity, you'll be able to use less CDs on busters, to use more of them on autos and stuff, and this can actually be enough extra-mitigation to give healers more room to DPS (on top of the fact that if tenacity reaches a point where it gives you 20% mitigation, it will also increase your damage by quite a big amount too, even if still a little bit less than other DPS stats). But before that point, it's completely meaningless. And we're quite far from it, but it could totally be a possibility in future patches when we reach higher ilvl. We can also consider the possibility that if tenacity reaches such a point of mitigation in the future, they'll actually take it into account when designing fights, requiring a certain number of tenacity in order to properly tank out of tanking stance. If they don't do that and tenacity eventually reaches that point, stacking it will ultimately end up trivializing all the tank busters and general tank incoming damage in future raids. Which would not be good design at all.

TL;DR, right now, tenacity isn't optimal, but not terribad either if you have it on your gear (unlike parry), it's far from being a dead stat and could become very powerful in the future depending on different factors that we don't know yet.

[Matholwch]

Somehow this thread turned into a narrow vision of what I posted. I was talking about how Tenacity adds to mitigation/heals AND damage, hell, I even ran numbers for the lazy people. With a BiS DH build, it only out damages Tenacity by .74%. That's when I would add in Tenacity's mitigation and heals benefit over the top of that, which came out to 2.5% extra. Not a lot, sure, but the DH numbers alone aren't enough to say that DH is king and the only stat to stack. Sure, a lot of the fights are based on damage, some even have DPS checks, that extra .74% may not even help if a DH doesn't proc. Saying Tenacity is wrong or isn't optimal is just silly, because overall Tenacity adds 3 things (extra to heals received/mitigation), and the one everyone is all excited about is dmg. Stacking a trait that has a single benefit for that extra .74% is just silly, and not caring about the passive benefits that the other stat is bringing to the party.

Tenacity helps when mistakes happen. I was just trying to PUG a savage yesterday and got crap luck, so I didn't get the clear. Hours of PUG healers not healing quick enough, or DPS not handing the right mechanics. After a few hours I would start missing a few mechanics because of raider fatigue. Tenacity helps in those situations because of the passive benefits. I can garuntee it helped more than a .74% dmg did. None of those groups died at <2% enrage. Which is way more than the .74% would have helped. I can say that when the crappy healers needed to cure spam, Tenacity helped. I can say when I had to pop an extra CD to Cover someone for a mechanic miss, that extra damage I was taking was mitigated better by Tenacity than it would have been with DH. In an ideal world everyone can stack dmg all day and mechanics will never be missed, healers will never fall behind, and HoTs can cure everything. Nobody in this game ever ONLY plays with their friends. They never touch duty finder, they never have a PUG in their groups. That's just not a thing. So we will all play with bad players, absent minded DPS, or slow healers. They give us skills like Cover to help other people, and sometimes you have to blow a CD with those. All of those situations is where Tenacity comes in. Tenacity isn't to the point where you can count on it's mitigation to prevent use of another CD, but it does make a more sturdy tank, and it helps out the healers.

Picking DH as your main skill is completely fine, but to say Tenacity isn't optimal because it's damage doesn't stack up is just wrong. Stop being narrow minded and single focused on DPS. Our gear has no built in DH, and that's likely for a reason. They even start tanks at a solid 0% chance to DH. Odds are high that the next tier of gear won't have it either. That's when the DH lovers in this thread will be mad because to them the crafted right side will still be BiS, so they can overmeld DH. Which will have lost it's .74% dmg benefit because our gear will have increased Tenacity.

[Baci]

Sorry but for one thing you are lying and that is that you notice the 1.8% difference in mitigation.

And to answer your side question. Tenacity increases your outgoing healing and not healing received

[RLofOBFL]

The mitigation is crazy negligible, that's the point. But so is the dh damage supposedly so either way it doesn't matter. And you don't get returning heal gains. It only affects outgoing heals a la PLD. But in the end It doesn't really matter. You're experiencing a placebo effect. The only time you can actually feel that Tenacity helped is if you get hit and are left with a few hp. Then yes, tenacity actually did help. But the same can be said with DH, if you were 1 second from enrage and won then yes DH helped.

[Freyyy]

snip

We're telling you that it's not optimal, and you deny it with this post by stating examples of non-optimized fights. Your scenarios where you said that tenacity helped won't happen to a group who got the raid on farm for weeks and are all BiS. And you won't have BiS before having the raid on farm. So, no point in doing a tenacity BiS still. It won't help you farm better. It might help for the next raid tier tho. But there's plenty of time to prepare before then.

[Shinkyo]

I don't know the stat weights for instance but I'm pretty sure that skill speed is still not very good

Skill speed isn't that bad.
Just the GCD reduction and the auto attack buff make it better than Tenacity, but worst than Det.
Not even to mention the increased gauge generation.
Skillspeed would only possibly get worst than Tenacity if you have too much to the point where it throws off your rotation or if it make you clip gcd from having to double weave oGCD.
None of the tanks would be negatively affected by skill speed.
As for crit, it is worst than ten until 1500 points in a silo but recent discussions shows how it synergies well with DH due to the multiplicative effect of their high damage modifiers (i.e. At combined 3500 dh+crit, crit already starts to be better that dh).
There's a lot more chance for tenacity to be worst than any stats at any point than not.

[Matholwch]

snip

The examples I gave are for non optimal fights, I'll concede that. The point I was getting at though is that the majority of all fights we do aren't optimal. Gearing Tenacity is also raising DPS to within under 1% of DH, so you're not losing any legit damage, while mitigation and heals are an added benefit. So even when a tank has those fights on farm, he's still getting the benefit from the DPS Tenacity brings. You are completely ignoring the fact that Tenacity brings damage with it as well. Also once the tank gets this savage content on farm, here comes Super Savage, then the next raiding tier.

So you're saying it's best to stack damage now, until the next raid tier comes, then you will strip all the materia in your gear for Tenacity for progression in the next raid. All so you can have that .74% increase to your damage for the content that you happen to have on farm? You'd be doing that to take 2.5% more damage and gain .74% in damage dealt.

For the argument that Tenacity only works for heals that are going out, I haven't seen any actual data on that. Please link where you're finding that. One thing that I've used in most of my posts are data, and the people trying to argue against me aren't even doing that. I may not agree with Shinkyo's ideas on what's best, but I respect them a lot more than others since he brought numbers to the conversation. This thread is meant to spark educated debate, not just dataless retorts.

Give me numbers Freyyy. Show me how that .74% damage is going to add up to how much in a 11 minute fight against o2s or o3s. Tell me how much more damage that will put out and how it will save the fights. I've already listed how mitigation could change that fight. Wouldn't change it dramatically, but could save a GCD or two for a healer. The thing about DH is that you don't even know which skill it could proc on. As a PLD I; FB > RB > RA. Ideally I'd love a DH on Royal Authority, but that's 33% of the combo. FB and RB don't hit very hard in the rotation, DH has a 66% chance of hitting one of those out of the 3. So now you're adding a small boost to a smaller hit. In a perfect world 13.3% chance of DH would mean that 13 or 14 hits out of 100 land on Royal Authority, or Rage of Halone if you're using that rotation. Odds are higher that the DH procs are going to hit the smaller skills and yield even less of a benefit. With Tenacity helping every swing of my sword, RA always gets the boost, Rage always gets the boost.

[whiskeybravo]

The problem with a strictly numbers approach is it can contradict basic logic.

Example:

Tenacity helps when mistakes happen. I was just trying to PUG a savage yesterday and got crap luck, so I didn't get the clear. Hours of PUG healers not healing quick enough, or DPS not handing the right mechanics. After a few hours I would start missing a few mechanics because of raider fatigue. Tenacity helps in those situations because of the passive benefits. I can garuntee it helped more than a .74% dmg did.

You say you want data but present no data here how tenacity helped you, only that you can guarantee it helped more than .74% damage would have. But actually, you are saying that you're so well geared that you'd only do .74% more damage by equipping lv340 BiS DH. Is that how math works?

Example 2:

Show me how that .74% damage is going to add up to how much in a 11 minute fight against o2s or o3s. Tell me how much more damage that will put out and how it will save the fights. I've already listed how mitigation could change that fight. Wouldn't change it dramatically, but could save a GCD or two for a healer.

Let's set aside the dps difference for the moment (since both stats increase dps) and look at the added benefit of perhaps saving a healer GCD by increased mitigation. You take an attack for 10k damage, healer heals for 10k HP. You decide to stack tenacity and gain 10% damage reduction, therefore only taking 9000 damage. The healer is still healing for 10k HP. Now, you can make these numbers dance around either way tbh, but given this example you can see that the damage reduction isn't always going to give you a tangible benefit. (versus increased DPS which will always provide a tangible benefit)

[Matholwch]

The problem with a strictly numbers approach is it can contradict basic logic.

I already presented data about how it would have helped in a fight, you've posted nothing but saying my argument was going against basic logic, yet asked for more data. If you want me to provide more data, give me some data to reply to. Just asking for more data from me to try to nit pick it doesn't help your case. SHOW ME I'm wrong, show me you're right.

[Baci]

For the argument that Tenacity only works for heals that are going out, I haven't seen any actual data on that. Please link where you're finding that. One thing that I've used in most of my posts are data, and the people trying to argue against me aren't even doing that. I may not agree with Shinkyo's ideas on what's best, but I respect them a lot more than others since he brought numbers to the conversation. This thread is meant to spark educated debate, not just dataless retorts.

And here you are doing the same. Show me the Data that it DOES effect incoming heal.
Atleast TEN not affection incoming Heal is quite logical. SE doesnt want TEN to be too strong. If it would affect both mitigation and incoming Heal it would double dip on the effectiveness of the Heals. The less damage you take the more effective is a heal and, well, the more increased healing the more effective a heal would be again.
So if we get further into the expansion Ilvls will obviously rise and with that our Secondary stats. Just imagine getting into the 15-20% range of TEN, we would get really effectively less dmg AND more Heal, it would be at some point definetly too strong.

Oh and theres the thing thats it´s just like back in ARR where People thought DET would increase incoming Healing. Which it did not and does not. SE is just not good at wording stuff correctly.