Tenacity proven better? (BiS for tanks?) Gear Stat Calc

[Matholwch]

A theory-crafting spreadsheet was posted on Reddit and I was fiddling with numbers. I’ve been an advocate of Tenacity for a couple weeks now, and this is reading as it might be the actual way to go at i340. The issue with most tanks is they just take what they read in Reddit and they don’t do the math themselves, so I’m checking numbers and would like a little feedback on this.

Gear Stat Calculator - Link

What I used for BiS in DH w/melds - Link

What I used for BiS in Tenacity w/melds - Link

So I did BiS (i340) gear for DH (including Pork Kakuni) with second stat being Tenacity, took those numbers and plugged them into the calculator, then I took BiS (i339) for Tenacity (including Pork Stew) with second stat being DH. For the record, I input all stats into this calculator. STR/DH/CH/Det/SkS/Vit. The calculator shows that the damage is as close to identical as you can get, .249% difference in favor of Tenacity. The Tenacity build w/food comes to 2165 Tenacity vs DH build w/food coming to 1801 Tenacity. So the Tenacity build comes to roughly 10.8% mitigation and bonus to heals, were as the DH build comes to 9% mitigation and bonus to heals.

Tenacity build w/food gives the extra 1.8% mitigation/bonus heals and .249% extra in damage. Differences seem negligible, but Tenacity does seem the best way to build as of now and most likely in the future as well.

Side question:
Will the extra tenacity be doubled for things like Adlo from a SCH? The extra 1.8% in the heal, and get that translated to a bigger shield, 1.8%? Effectively, a 3.6% improvement?

[Shinkyo]

Snip

I did a similar comparison and where the spreadsheet falls short is that it doesn't value SkS at all currently.
Another thing to consider is that if you stack DH, you can't have the full benefit of the food buff because you can't reach high enough value to cap the 5% buff at 85 stats point.
Stacking crit is also not a good option because you can't max your food buff either (while avoiding Tenacity) and can't get near the 3500 DH+Crit threshold where Crit become more valuable that DH.

Personally, I've converted the SkS difference into Tenacity (slightly buffed because SkS>Tenacity) and it puts the DH build at 1% higher than the Tenacity one.
I'll gladly trade that 1% dps increase for 5.5% mitigation but that's a personal opinion.

[Matholwch]

snip

With me running in PUGs mostly, I'm finding a lot of scrub healers, so I'm enjoying the comfort of the mitigation and bigger heals. Have any numbers been posted about heals received increasing at the same rate as mitigation, or could they potentially be higher or lower still?

[Shinkyo]

With me running in PUGs mostly, I'm finding a lot of scrub healers, so I'm enjoying the comfort of the mitigation and bigger heals. Have any numbers been posted about heals received increasing at the same rate as mitigation, or could they potentially be higher or lower still?

The effect of Tenacity on heals are unclear to me.
I've seen people saying that Tenacity increased self heals only (the tooltip says so as well) and not healing received from healers. However, I've personally tested heals from IB and Soul Eater with/without tenacity and it did not make any different in damage % absorbed as heals.
I don't really know what to make of it...

[MauvaisOeil]

The effect of Tenacity on heals are unclear to me.
I've seen people saying that Tenacity increased self heals only (the tooltip says so as well) and not healing received from healers. However, I've personally tested heals from IB and Soul Eater with/without tenacity and it did not make any different in damage % absorbed as heals.
I don't really know what to make of it...

Test it with Equilibrium / Clemency.

I think the whole idea beeing : Since life steal effects already dip from the damage bonus component of ten, the healing effect won't be considerem for them.

But since Clemency and Equilibrium are sole heals, they needed an effect from tenacity or the stat itself wouldn't be considered usefull for them.

[aleph_null]

I'll gladly trade that 1% dps increase for 5.5% mitigation but that's a personal opinion.

The builds he linked have 360-ish difference in tenacity, which is not even 2% difference in mitigation. Stop assuming every build that doesn't prioritize tenacity to be a build that avoids tenacity. Some of the sets that I'm considering for my end game this tier have like 1.5k tenacity while melding DH on every slot.

I agree with this.

Checking FFLogs for you Dizzy, shows a clear of o3s (congrats btw). During the kill you took 1.03million as the OT. Going to apply numbers of the penta meld DH BiS that you preferred. It's just shy of 8% mitigation, so I rounded up to 8%. Total damage you would have taken without mitigation would have been around 1,112,400. With an estimated 8% mitigation, it would have put you around the 1.03mil listed. If you had the max penta Tenacity build (10.5% mitigation and bonus heals), you would have only taken 995,598 damage. A difference of 34,402. Not a huge amount I would admit, but you would only gain .73% bonus in damage (using the DH build) while taking the extra damage (due to lack of Tenacity). I didn't run damage numbers because we aren't talking about those, you are debating the mitigation is pointless. Damage numbers would be an even more minuscule difference. These numbers don't even take into account the extra you would have received from each heal, further granting your healers more potential time to get extra DPS from their rotations.

The 30k-ish less damage he'd take would be over a 11 min encounter, which translates to like 50 dmg taken per sec. Over a gcd (2.5s) that's only 125 less dmg taken per gcd. That's nowhere near enough to allow "extra healer dps." I'm not saying you should avoid tenacity, but saying tenacity build would increase healer dps is questionable at best, unless the "dps" BiS gear has like 2k less tenacity than the tenacity build or something.

[Matholwch]

The builds he linked have 360-ish difference in tenacity, which is not even 2% difference in mitigation. Stop assuming every build that doesn't prioritize tenacity to be a build that avoids tenacity. Some of the sets that I'm considering for my end game this tier have like 1.5k tenacity while melding DH on every slot.

I had to do the math on that one, but the build he's referring to targets every piece of SkS, which in most cases sacrificed Tenacity completely. Tenacity in the build he's referencing drops to around 1k over all. All in favor of SkS and maxing DH. Tenacity dropping that low, you would hit that loss of 5.5% mitigation. I believe it goes down to around 5.3% mitigation as opposed to 10.5% mitigation, if you were maxing tenacity. (over 2k)

The 30k-ish less damage he'd take would be over a 11 min encounter, which translates to like 50 dmg taken per sec. Over a gcd (2.5s) that's only 125 less dmg taken per gcd. That's nowhere near enough to allow "extra healer dps." I'm not saying you should avoid tenacity, but saying tenacity build would increase healer dps is questionable at best, unless the "dps" BiS gear has like 2k less tenacity than the tenacity build or something.

I get that it's not a major increase in up time for healer DPS, but them bring able to drop a HoT instead of a cure 2 is helpful for MP conservation. I also pointed out that the increase to healer potency on the tank with Tenacity contributes to using less heals overall. Taking snips from the point I was trying to make doesn't help unless it's all taken in context.

[aleph_null]

I get that it's not a major increase in up time for healer DPS, but them bring able to drop a HoT instead of a cure 2 is helpful for MP conservation. I also pointed out that the increase to healer potency on the tank with Tenacity contributes to using less heals overall. Taking snips from the point I was trying to make doesn't help unless it's all taken in context.

Cure 2 and other big single target heals are used mostly for topping up tanks for upcoming big damage or for emergencies where tanks fail mechanics or mitigation planning. The only time you can even consider replacing cure 2 with a regen is when you use cure 2 to heal tanks from auto attacks. Auto attacks in o3s hit anywhere between 10k to 15k without mitigation at a frequency of like one hit per 3 sec unless the boss is casting something. Taking 300-450 less dmg per auto attack won't change a cure 2 into a regen unless the healer in question was overusing cure 2 in the first place. If we're talking about 10%+ passive mitigation then yeah it'll matter since you can actually rearrange your cooldown rotation to leave things like rampart, raw intuition for auto attacks.

And one more thing people seem to overlook: skill and auto attack damage in this game has some sort of rng multiplier, making them not do the exact same amount of damage everytime you do the same action, even under the same condition. This number seems to be around 5% if I recall correctly. Any mitigation below that number wouldn't be relied on since when it comes to mitigation/healing you need to consider the worst case. You need to survive everything from the best case to worst case (even crit autos, which is why sometimes healers need to cast more heals in some pulls compared to other pulls, even with the same mitigation planning. You can't survive something on average, for the same reason healers can't rely on crit heals.

[Matholwch]

I've never been a fan of relying on a proc for anything. Even maining WHM from 2.2-4.0, if I had to rely on a crit to save someone I'm healing, several things have gone wrong already. Hopping for DH to proc can have great and also terrible consequences. Sure, you can get it to 13.3% without the penta melds, but that's still not great. If you get the average and 13 proc's out of 100 swings, that's just not a ton of extra damage, since tanks skill combos aren't major damage anyway. Sometimes you'll get a lot more procs, sometimes you'll get even less. I'm a fan of the certain damage increase for every swing with Ten, and get the passive benefits of the mitigation and extra heals.

Knowing I'm getting the benefit per swing (with Tenacity) is better to me than hoping my DH procs during a DPS check.

I also had another question in the OP. If healing is benefited by Ten, does that mean that Adlo's would get the benefit *2?

[Pells]

The 30k-ish less damage he'd take would be over a 11 min encounter, which translates to like 50 dmg taken per sec. Over a gcd (2.5s) that's only 125 less dmg taken per gcd. That's nowhere near enough to allow "extra healer dps." I'm not saying you should avoid tenacity, but saying tenacity build would increase healer dps is questionable at best, unless the "dps" BiS gear has like 2k less tenacity than the tenacity build or something.

30k damage is one heal, give or take. It's an extra gcd for the healer that isn't devoted to healing.