Tenacity proven better? (BiS for tanks?) Gear Stat Calc

[SyzzleSpark]

The world first race folks melded tenacity for insurance. Tenacity is blown out of the water by a couple weeks' worth of Def/mDef increases through simple ilvl upgrades.

The idea of a defensive BiS is pretty ludicrous actually, because by the time you reach it, you're so overgeared that no defensive attribute is netting you any real gain.

BiS is synonymous with damage, because the value of DPS scales with progression, from learning, proging, clearing, farming, speed-running, and beyond.

[DacienSanderon]

I wonder at what point mitigation would magically flip over to being goid for those tenacity haters. 20%? 50%? Do these people not bother using mitigation cooldowns for anything other than tankbusters? It's a truly sad state of the game if tanks are literally just a worse dps whose only role is to survive a tank buster that happens every minute or so. Who cares about aggro then, just provoke and use mitigation cooldown when it happens.

I'm also amused at ppl that think extra mitigation might matter for first kills but not for farm, yet think that extra dps matters for farming.

[Quri]

I thought over 2k tenacity is when tenacity becomes the king Tank stat. That being said we are talking about a 1% increase in damage or mitigation depending on whether you're doing tenacity or Direct Hit.

[RLofOBFL]

snip

You have to save mitigation FOR tankbusters. Especially when you're DRK and have no CDS. O3S Tankbuster one shots and is roughly every 90 seconds so imagine being a DRK, your mitigation includes rampart, shadow wall, and TBN. That's it. You can't just go popping your CDs willy nilly or you'll have none for the tankbuster and die.

The extra tenacity mitigation equates to maybe 4 extra spells your healer can cast that aren't heals. So if you're not DPSing, you're pushing it onto them to do it. Or else it's just missing damage, so you'll hit enrage and wipe. Say you take 1 million damage and have max tenacity, it'll be 5.5% mitigation, so 75k extra hp or 4 cure 2s that the healer won't need to cast. So 4 stone IVs is like 24K damage. so 49 dps(on an imaginary boss with 10 million hp and 10 minutes enrage). Or Direct Hit's 1.5% more damage, which is....60 additional dps. So basically....it doesn't matter. Unless your healers don't make up the dps difference, which even then doesn't matter much. Case closed.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

You can't just go popping your CDs willy nilly or you'll have none for the tankbuster and die.

Roughly 90 second CD, so I'm gonna assume it rotates every 80-85 seconds since roughly 90 isn't quite an exact number.

Role: Rampart, 20% 90 sec CD, shared between PLD/WAR/DRK.
Reprisal: 10% 5 secs 60 sec CD
PLD: Bulwark 180 sec, +60% block for roughly 22% on block, Sheltron at 50 oath/10 sec, identical mitigation to Bul, for TBs, Sentinel 40% 180 sec CD, HG invuln10 secs 7 min CD.
WAR: Def only IB 20% for 6 secs for 50 BG, Vengeance 30% 15 secs 120 sec CD, ToN+Conv for roughly 20% effective mitigation 20 secs and if it's physical, RA 20% for 20 secs. If it's roughly a 90 sec CD, all tanks are equipped with spare mitigation to space out for AAs and the like without leaving themselves vulnerable. WAR is built on pairing CDs together, and DRK can TBN every 15 secs for a bit of mitigation as well. If the TB isn't physical? Looks like WAR's RA can be used frequently enough to mitigate damage without leaving them vulnerable regardless.

[SyzzleSpark]

I wonder at what point mitigation would magically flip over to being goid for those tenacity haters. 20%? 50%? Do these people not bother using mitigation cooldowns for anything other than tankbusters? It's a truly sad state of the game if tanks are literally just a worse dps whose only role is to survive a tank buster that happens every minute or so. Who cares about aggro then, just provoke and use mitigation cooldown when it happens.

I'm also amused at ppl that think extra mitigation might matter for first kills but not for farm, yet think that extra dps matters for farming.

I mean, if you need Tenacity, that's fine, stack it. But frankly you're better off just learning to manage your defensive CDs better and ending the fight in a more expedient fashion. Don't pretend like there is some defensive BiS out there, because there isn't. BiS = damage. That's what the "best" in best in slot means. Best for damage.

The way you describe tanks in the "sad state" of this game is actually the way we are intended to work; every job in this game is a damage-dealer of some sort. The difference is that tanks and healers have a more simplified, but not less important, DPS role/rotation to accommodate their tanking/healing responsibilities.

Once you overgear farm content extra mitigation actually doesn't matter because its not saving anything. Healing will become more potent as healer's DPS scales with their healing, and your VIT/Def/mDef also continually rise, overtaking whatever Tenacity gains you utilized to get a first clear. So more mitigation beyond that is fluff and not helping you farm. DPS helps you farm. You clear faster, and thus can get more clears per investment of time. This really should be common sense.

Like I said, if you wanna stack tenacity that's fine, but sticking your nose up at people seeking to maximize their performance like you're some enlightened authority on the topic ain't fooling anyone.

[aleph_null]

I wonder at what point mitigation would magically flip over to being goid for those tenacity haters. 20%? 50%? Do these people not bother using mitigation cooldowns for anything other than tankbusters? It's a truly sad state of the game if tanks are literally just a worse dps whose only role is to survive a tank buster that happens every minute or so. Who cares about aggro then, just provoke and use mitigation cooldown when it happens.

I'm also amused at ppl that think extra mitigation might matter for first kills but not for farm, yet think that extra dps matters for farming.

Stackable passive mitigation like tenacity "magically" becomes good at points where they actually give you enough mitigation to change your cd management. If I need vengeance + rampart + thrill for a tank buster, and I have 5% extra mitigation from stacking tenacity, it's unlikely that I'd drop any of the 3 cds. But if I have 15% extra mitigation from tenacity, I might drop rampart and use it to mitigate other mechanics or auto attacks.

Extra mitigation doesn't matter until it changes your mitigation or healing plans. Taking 300 less damage per 10-15k auto attack won't allow your healers to heal you less, and taking 2k less damage per tank buster won't allow you to use one less cds than you usually do. That amount of extra mitigation won't make any healing/tanking checks easier, while on the other hand extra dps would always make dps checks or beating enrage easier, even if by a little. In the context of farming extra dps allows you to still clear while having more mistakes or deaths. Extra mitigation can help too if it can cover for mistakes by tanks/healers, though you'd need quite a bit more than 3-5%.

Roughly 90 second CD, so I'm gonna assume it rotates every 80-85 seconds since roughly 90 isn't quite an exact number.

Role: Rampart, 20% 90 sec CD, shared between PLD/WAR/DRK.
Reprisal: 10% 5 secs 60 sec CD
PLD: Bulwark 180 sec, +60% block for roughly 22% on block, Sheltron at 50 oath/10 sec, identical mitigation to Bul, for TBs, Sentinel 40% 180 sec CD, HG invuln10 secs 7 min CD.
WAR: Def only IB 20% for 6 secs for 50 BG, Vengeance 30% 15 secs 120 sec CD, ToN+Conv for roughly 20% effective mitigation 20 secs and if it's physical, RA 20% for 20 secs. If it's roughly a 90 sec CD, all tanks are equipped with spare mitigation to space out for AAs and the like without leaving themselves vulnerable. WAR is built on pairing CDs together, and DRK can TBN every 15 secs for a bit of mitigation as well. If the TB isn't physical? Looks like WAR's RA can be used frequently enough to mitigate damage without leaving them vulnerable regardless.

The tank busters in o3s are guaranteed to crit, so any block/parry cd is useless unless you pair it with awareness. There are also a lot of aoe damage, that one tank won't be able to cover them all with reprisal, so most of the time both tanks' reprisals are saved for aoe damage. Imo ideally this fight will be tanked by a war or drk with a pld off tank, since war can holmgang half of the tank busters while stacking 2+ cds for the others, allowing them to save raw intuition and rampart for things like the tether swap (20k-ish dmg unmitigated) or auto attacks, and pld can cover with awareness and sheltron for pretty good amount of mitigation without losing much in terms of personal cds which can be used for adds.

[Dizzy_Derp]

I wonder at what point mitigation would magically flip over to being goid for those tenacity haters. 20%? 50%? Do these people not bother using mitigation cooldowns for anything other than tankbusters? Who cares about aggro then, just provoke and use mitigation cooldown when it happens.I'm also amused at ppl that think extra mitigation might matter for first kills but not for farm, yet think that extra dps matters for farming.

Im amused by that fact that people continue to use things like secondary stat passive mitigation and tank stance a a crutch for poor play and improper CD usage. Its the mindset that is the issue here, some people have convinced themselves that thier way is better because its "safer" or because "its how i want to play." That's all fine and dandy but it is a problem coming to a forum where performance is up for debate and trying go say that the factually less optimal style of play you prefer is the way people should be playing.

Obviously we use cds outside of busters you have a shit ton between both tanks Which is why you force swaps. if we could get 20% tanks would stack it. if we could get 20% tanks would stack it. Thats a passive CD. Tenacity does not give that.

Aggro is not even part of the discussion, witgh shirk you can pull in dps stance with a team of 100th perctile dps and not lose hate. Ten is worthless atm because there is a stat that gives you more damage and we dont need that little mitigation. And yes it's value is diminished at the farm status becausefense is you have gear which makes the passive mitigation even more worthless because your defense is up at which point what you want is more damage for faster and more consistent cleats as there will be less time to possibly make errors. Go that goal you will take direct hit over tenacity.

[kagemitsu]

I just wish we agreed on something so I don't have to spend millions in re-melding my gear every time one of these threads comes up.

[SyzzleSpark]

I just wish we agreed on something so I don't have to spend millions in re-melding my gear every time one of these threads comes up.

I know this statement is practically a cliche now, but unless you're in world prog or at least server 1st-type stuff, it really makes little difference, so long as your gear is melded with VIs of some appropriate stat (i.e not Piety or something moronic). If you're literally remelding your gear that you already have melded (not just melding upgrades as they replace existing gear) based on the whims of the internet or even the latest actual stat weights after the tier has been cleared and out for weeks, you hang way too much on the words of others.

That being said, a BiS based on a mitigation stat is literally an oxymoron, because secondary stat-based mitigation's usefulness is inversely proportionate to both progression and gear increases. DPS continues to build on itself and lead to faster and easier clears, whereas Tenacity's mitigation components become obsolete after your Vit/Def/mDef rise with upgrades the following week. Say week 1 you needed fully melded tenacity to survive. In the coming weeks through ilvl upgrades you will survive without them, so you don't need them. And that's for world prog folks. If you're not making it without tenacity a month in, you need new healers or a new cooldown rotation.

Basically, if you feel that you are not skilled enough or your healers are not skilled enough that you want tenacity melds as a safety net, by all means, use them. But don't listen to threads like this pretending there is some BiS for it, because there isn't.