Tenacity proven better? (BiS for tanks?) Gear Stat Calc

[Kabooa]

There is nothing elitist about it at all. You don't need the mitigation now or ever and when you clear o4s it's not going to change that at all..

By this logic you will never need that +1% damage from prioritizing Direct Hit either. It's not only insignificant on a personal level but even less so on a raid scale.

[Ogulbuk]

By this logic you will never need that +1% damage from prioritizing Direct Hit either. It's not only insignificant on a personal level but even less so on a raid scale.

Was about to say this.

Also: less damage taken may translate in at less babysitting and the healer having more chances to dps, so sturdier tank can still translate into more damage.

[Matholwch]

snip

I agree with this.

Checking FFLogs for you Dizzy, shows a clear of o3s (congrats btw). During the kill you took 1.03million as the OT. Going to apply numbers of the penta meld DH BiS that you preferred. It's just shy of 8% mitigation, so I rounded up to 8%. Total damage you would have taken without mitigation would have been around 1,112,400. With an estimated 8% mitigation, it would have put you around the 1.03mil listed. If you had the max penta Tenacity build (10.5% mitigation and bonus heals), you would have only taken 995,598 damage. A difference of 34,402. Not a huge amount I would admit, but you would only gain .73% bonus in damage (using the DH build) while taking the extra damage (due to lack of Tenacity). I didn't run damage numbers because we aren't talking about those, you are debating the mitigation is pointless. Damage numbers would be an even more minuscule difference. These numbers don't even take into account the extra you would have received from each heal, further granting your healers more potential time to get extra DPS from their rotations.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Interesting. Well, it doesn't change much for Mr because I prefer being a Tenacious D so I was gonna Max Tenacity anyway, but this is interesting to note. Also, I'm chuckling at the thought that a tank doing 10 more dps is gonna make or break a win. You have bigger problems in your party if that's what determines your win.

[Ogulbuk]

♫ Now the skies could fall
Not even if my boss should call
The world it seems so very small
'Cause nothin' even matters, at all ♫

♫ See nothin' even matters
See nothin' even matters at all
Nothin' even matters
Nothin' even matters at all ♫

(throws hands in air and goes for iLvL and whatever material is cheaper)

[Dizzy_Derp]

I didn't run damage numbers because we aren't talking about those, you are debating the mitigation is pointless. Damage numbers would be an even more minuscule difference. These numbers don't even take into account the extra you would have received from each heal, further granting your healers more potential time to get extra DPS from their rotations.

What im debating is the fact that the extra mitigation is pointless because it's not going to change the fight for you or your healers at the low level ten currently gives. You aren't going to change your CD rotation based on the amount of tenacity you have and your healers arent going to be examining your gear pre pull and mathing that in to change thier healing rotation. Your gonna pop cds at the same time and your healers are going to Heal you at the same time regardless of if you youbstacked ten or not so I see the increased damage no matter how small as more beneficial.

[Shinkyo]

Avoiding tenacity doesn't necessarily give you the highest dps set, at least for now we don't know yet.

I know it's slighty more nuanced than that but still not to the point where it'd make a big difference.
It's pretty pointless to discredit my non-Tenacity set because of it not being the "ultimate" Dps BiS which by your own word "we don't know yet".
It was an example to showcase the scale of variance we're talking about between DH and Tenacity.
But if you have a BiS set with a perfect balance of stats that give 5% more DPS over a full Tenacity build, please share it. I'd definitely go for that one.

[aleph_null]

Assuming there isn't a plateau somewhere between now and then. I don't know, I'm not avoiding tenacity, but I am melding direct hit. I'd glady drop tenacity to get my skill speed back up (went from 2.42 to 2.39 now back to 2.43 after upgrades ._.), maybe skill speed isn't technically as valuable but in situations like that I'm placing a higher value than tenacity.

And I don't understand.. If the "tenacity set" is only 300 more tenacity than the "direct hit set" why tf is this even a discussion lol (just doesn't seem like enough difference to even begin claiming one is better than the other)

Because some people only look at the extremes. Just because I don't create my build by maximizing tenacity doesn't mean I'm avoiding it. For example if I craft a set maximizing det while melding dh I might get somewhere around 1.2-1.5k. As of now we don't even know what the best set is, dps wise (unless you write a program to go through the millions of gear/meld combinations and check them one by one), so making a set minimizing tenacity just for the sake of avoiding it is stupid.

I know it's slighty more nuanced than that but still not to the point where it'd make a big difference.
It's pretty pointless to discredit my non-Tenacity set because of it not being the "ultimate" Dps BiS which by your own word "we don't know yet".
It was an example to showcase the scale of variance we're talking about between DH and Tenacity.
But if you have a BiS set with a perfect balance of stats that give 5% more DPS over a full Tenacity build, please share it. I'd definitely go for that one.

I was more curious in why you'd put "avoiding tenacity" as the priority for your dps oriented set. It's not parry that's literally 0 dps, it scales worse than other dps stats but not by much. I don't know, but for me it makes much more sense to prioritize maximizing the good stats (like det for example, which looks to be better than crit/sks/ten) before avoiding the slightly worse stats. No offense but it looks like you're just cherry picking the sets to inflate the extra mitigation the tenacity set offers.

[SyzzleSpark]

The world first race folks melded tenacity for insurance. Tenacity is blown out of the water by a couple weeks' worth of Def/mDef increases through simple ilvl upgrades.

The idea of a defensive BiS is pretty ludicrous actually, because by the time you reach it, you're so overgeared that no defensive attribute is netting you any real gain.

BiS is synonymous with damage, because the value of DPS scales with progression, from learning, proging, clearing, farming, speed-running, and beyond.

[DacienSanderon]

I wonder at what point mitigation would magically flip over to being goid for those tenacity haters. 20%? 50%? Do these people not bother using mitigation cooldowns for anything other than tankbusters? It's a truly sad state of the game if tanks are literally just a worse dps whose only role is to survive a tank buster that happens every minute or so. Who cares about aggro then, just provoke and use mitigation cooldown when it happens.

I'm also amused at ppl that think extra mitigation might matter for first kills but not for farm, yet think that extra dps matters for farming.