Tenacity proven better? (BiS for tanks?) Gear Stat Calc

[aleph_null]

I'll gladly trade that 1% dps increase for 5.5% mitigation but that's a personal opinion.

The builds he linked have 360-ish difference in tenacity, which is not even 2% difference in mitigation. Stop assuming every build that doesn't prioritize tenacity to be a build that avoids tenacity. Some of the sets that I'm considering for my end game this tier have like 1.5k tenacity while melding DH on every slot.

I agree with this.

Checking FFLogs for you Dizzy, shows a clear of o3s (congrats btw). During the kill you took 1.03million as the OT. Going to apply numbers of the penta meld DH BiS that you preferred. It's just shy of 8% mitigation, so I rounded up to 8%. Total damage you would have taken without mitigation would have been around 1,112,400. With an estimated 8% mitigation, it would have put you around the 1.03mil listed. If you had the max penta Tenacity build (10.5% mitigation and bonus heals), you would have only taken 995,598 damage. A difference of 34,402. Not a huge amount I would admit, but you would only gain .73% bonus in damage (using the DH build) while taking the extra damage (due to lack of Tenacity). I didn't run damage numbers because we aren't talking about those, you are debating the mitigation is pointless. Damage numbers would be an even more minuscule difference. These numbers don't even take into account the extra you would have received from each heal, further granting your healers more potential time to get extra DPS from their rotations.

The 30k-ish less damage he'd take would be over a 11 min encounter, which translates to like 50 dmg taken per sec. Over a gcd (2.5s) that's only 125 less dmg taken per gcd. That's nowhere near enough to allow "extra healer dps." I'm not saying you should avoid tenacity, but saying tenacity build would increase healer dps is questionable at best, unless the "dps" BiS gear has like 2k less tenacity than the tenacity build or something.

[Matholwch]

The builds he linked have 360-ish difference in tenacity, which is not even 2% difference in mitigation. Stop assuming every build that doesn't prioritize tenacity to be a build that avoids tenacity. Some of the sets that I'm considering for my end game this tier have like 1.5k tenacity while melding DH on every slot.

I had to do the math on that one, but the build he's referring to targets every piece of SkS, which in most cases sacrificed Tenacity completely. Tenacity in the build he's referencing drops to around 1k over all. All in favor of SkS and maxing DH. Tenacity dropping that low, you would hit that loss of 5.5% mitigation. I believe it goes down to around 5.3% mitigation as opposed to 10.5% mitigation, if you were maxing tenacity. (over 2k)

The 30k-ish less damage he'd take would be over a 11 min encounter, which translates to like 50 dmg taken per sec. Over a gcd (2.5s) that's only 125 less dmg taken per gcd. That's nowhere near enough to allow "extra healer dps." I'm not saying you should avoid tenacity, but saying tenacity build would increase healer dps is questionable at best, unless the "dps" BiS gear has like 2k less tenacity than the tenacity build or something.

I get that it's not a major increase in up time for healer DPS, but them bring able to drop a HoT instead of a cure 2 is helpful for MP conservation. I also pointed out that the increase to healer potency on the tank with Tenacity contributes to using less heals overall. Taking snips from the point I was trying to make doesn't help unless it's all taken in context.

[aleph_null]

I get that it's not a major increase in up time for healer DPS, but them bring able to drop a HoT instead of a cure 2 is helpful for MP conservation. I also pointed out that the increase to healer potency on the tank with Tenacity contributes to using less heals overall. Taking snips from the point I was trying to make doesn't help unless it's all taken in context.

Cure 2 and other big single target heals are used mostly for topping up tanks for upcoming big damage or for emergencies where tanks fail mechanics or mitigation planning. The only time you can even consider replacing cure 2 with a regen is when you use cure 2 to heal tanks from auto attacks. Auto attacks in o3s hit anywhere between 10k to 15k without mitigation at a frequency of like one hit per 3 sec unless the boss is casting something. Taking 300-450 less dmg per auto attack won't change a cure 2 into a regen unless the healer in question was overusing cure 2 in the first place. If we're talking about 10%+ passive mitigation then yeah it'll matter since you can actually rearrange your cooldown rotation to leave things like rampart, raw intuition for auto attacks.

And one more thing people seem to overlook: skill and auto attack damage in this game has some sort of rng multiplier, making them not do the exact same amount of damage everytime you do the same action, even under the same condition. This number seems to be around 5% if I recall correctly. Any mitigation below that number wouldn't be relied on since when it comes to mitigation/healing you need to consider the worst case. You need to survive everything from the best case to worst case (even crit autos, which is why sometimes healers need to cast more heals in some pulls compared to other pulls, even with the same mitigation planning. You can't survive something on average, for the same reason healers can't rely on crit heals.

[Matholwch]

I've never been a fan of relying on a proc for anything. Even maining WHM from 2.2-4.0, if I had to rely on a crit to save someone I'm healing, several things have gone wrong already. Hopping for DH to proc can have great and also terrible consequences. Sure, you can get it to 13.3% without the penta melds, but that's still not great. If you get the average and 13 proc's out of 100 swings, that's just not a ton of extra damage, since tanks skill combos aren't major damage anyway. Sometimes you'll get a lot more procs, sometimes you'll get even less. I'm a fan of the certain damage increase for every swing with Ten, and get the passive benefits of the mitigation and extra heals.

Knowing I'm getting the benefit per swing (with Tenacity) is better to me than hoping my DH procs during a DPS check.

I also had another question in the OP. If healing is benefited by Ten, does that mean that Adlo's would get the benefit *2?

[Pells]

The 30k-ish less damage he'd take would be over a 11 min encounter, which translates to like 50 dmg taken per sec. Over a gcd (2.5s) that's only 125 less dmg taken per gcd. That's nowhere near enough to allow "extra healer dps." I'm not saying you should avoid tenacity, but saying tenacity build would increase healer dps is questionable at best, unless the "dps" BiS gear has like 2k less tenacity than the tenacity build or something.

30k damage is one heal, give or take. It's an extra gcd for the healer that isn't devoted to healing.

[aleph_null]

30k damage is one heal, give or take. It's an extra gcd for the healer that isn't devoted to healing.

Lol nope. As I've said it's 30k over 11 minute, unless you're assuming you'll never cap hp at 100% or 0% (1 hp holmgang/LD) it doesn't carry over that way. Look at it this way, if your healer can heal you 3k less in the first phase, that's not going to save them a heal at all. You'll just possibly enter the next phase with 3k more hp. Unless you can preserve this "gain" throughout the entire fight by never overwriting it with overheals on the tank it's very unlikely that you'll be able to save a heal gcd.

[whiskeybravo]

Lol nope. As I've said it's 30k over 11 minute, unless you're assuming you'll never cap hp at 100% or 0% (1 hp holmgang/LD) it doesn't carry over that way. Look at it this way, if your healer can heal you 3k less in the first phase, that's not going to save them a heal at all. You'll just possibly enter the next phase with 3k more hp. Unless you can preserve this "gain" throughout the entire fight by never overwriting it with overheals on the tank it's very unlikely that you'll be able to save a heal gcd.

This is my logic. Regardless of whether DH > Tenacity or the other way around, healers are overhealing most of the time so the extra damage reduction isn't going to have that much of an impact. In theory it's nice, sure, but between overhealing and +/-5% damage/healing variation it just seems so negligible either way.

[aleph_null]

This is my logic. Regardless of whether DH > Tenacity or the other way around, healers are overhealing most of the time so the extra damage reduction isn't going to have that much of an impact. In theory it's nice, sure, but between overhealing and +/-5% damage/healing variation it just seems so negligible either way.

Yes most of the time overheals exist due to aoe heals, hot, shielding, crit heals, and healers topping up people before a mechanic that does a lot of dmg. That's why I said that the amount of extra mitigation we can get right now is too small to matter when it comes to healing/mitigation management. If we can get like 2k or even 1k more tenacity over the current max it'll matter because we'd be crossing the point where we can start using less cds for tank busters and spare some cds for other mechanics or auto attacks.

[whiskeybravo]

Yes most of the time overheals exist due to aoe heals, hot, shielding, crit heals, and healers topping up people before a mechanic that does a lot of dmg. That's why I said that the amount of extra mitigation we can get right now is too small to matter when it comes to healing/mitigation management. If we can get like 2k or even 1k more tenacity over the current max it'll matter because we'd be crossing the point where we can start using less cds for tank busters and spare some cds for other mechanics or auto attacks.

Assuming there isn't a plateau somewhere between now and then. I don't know, I'm not avoiding tenacity, but I am melding direct hit. I'd glady drop tenacity to get my skill speed back up (went from 2.42 to 2.39 now back to 2.43 after upgrades ._.), maybe skill speed isn't technically as valuable but in situations like that I'm placing a higher value than tenacity.

And I don't understand.. If the "tenacity set" is only 300 more tenacity than the "direct hit set" why tf is this even a discussion lol (just doesn't seem like enough difference to even begin claiming one is better than the other)

[Shinkyo]

The builds he linked have 360-ish difference in tenacity, which is not even 2% difference in mitigation. Stop assuming every build that doesn't prioritize tenacity to be a build that avoids tenacity. Some of the sets that I'm considering for my end game this tier have like 1.5k tenacity while melding DH on every slot.

Well if we're going to compare Tenacity to other stats, we need to take both extremes.
Here's are the gears sets I'm referring to:
- Tenacity BiS: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWT
- Non Tenacity BiS (aka, avoid tenacity like the pest): http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/11OWO

Tenacity being the lowest DPS scaling stat, those 2 builds are the highest dps variance you can get and on those sets the overall trade off is ~1.5% DPS increase vs. ~5.5% mitigation.
Whether it's a good or bad trade off, that's everyone's personal decision but neither options make significant difference in anyway where one is "right", the other is "wrong".

DH is good, Tenacity is slightly less good for DPS.
There is no trash substats nor is there a king substat for tanks. Or you might as well call every substat garbage since they all scale within a tiny margin.
A truly garbage stat is spellspeed on RDM because 60% of your gcd's aren't affected by it. Tenacity is nowhere in that realm.