Is MCH even support?

[Ghastly]

With Machinist you basically play the hardest piano tune in the world and end up losing to someone playing lyp synching a song (bard).

I just want them to tell us what MCH is supposed to be. If they want bard as the BLM/SAM of physical range classes then ok fine but shouldn't MCH have more support skills than bard then? If they messed up and want bard to be the actual bard and support the most shouldn't their damage be lower than MCH then?

It's a bit sad because new MCH is really fun but getting anything out of them besides savage raids where bosses move around/have 10000 mechanics isn't worth it. I hope they don't only see savage raid numbers and think it's ok because ONLY in savage raids do bosses give you enough time to use your best burst again. Anywhere besides that it doesn't make sense.

Maybe they just need to change the identity of the job and instead of burst remove overheat mechanic and make it about staying within 50/95 on the gauge and then reset to 0 if you go above 95 instead of giving you a complete penalty. This also makes flamethrower use more interesting. Or just remove the penalty altogether, seriously. That overheat mechanics goes too far, we already have Wildfire and the rook/bishop overload, we don't need another one with the heat gauge overheat and then it turns into a penalty.

[AkashiXI]

With Machinist you basically play the hardest piano tune in the world and end up losing to someone playing lyp synching a song (bard).

It's posts like yours that irk me the wrong way. The way you're comparing Bard and Machinist is infallible and dumbed down - Bard is in no way an easy job to perform with in Raid. Is it as hard as MCH? No, but to say it's like your comparison just shows your disdain towards the meta currently. Don't lash out at a job that's perfectly tuned (Bard) for its role, that's a mob mentality that'll end up nerfing a job that doesn't need it.

Also, Bard does nowhere near the damage a red mage or black mage does. With Dragon Sight and Disembowel (along with Battle Litany), they're comparing, however those are buffs that are given from another job. Bard is nowhere near the level of the caster counterparts.

[Zeonsilt]

Also, Bard does nowhere near the damage a red mage or black mage does. With Dragon Sight and Disembowel (along with Battle Litany), they're comparing, however those are buffs that are given from another job. Bard is nowhere near the level of the caster counterparts.

Depends on the encounter.
In O4S Neo-Exdeath Bard do the same damage as BLM and RDM. (because /mechanics)
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/17#b...obal&spec=Bard

TL;DR O4S
- 4.3k Bard
- 4.5k BLM
- 4.4k RDM
..........
- 3.9k MCH (such good dps)

But, i got the feeling that instead of MCH buffs in 4.1, we will receive BRD nerfs and both jobs will be collecting dust.

p.s. I want MCH to be competitive in Savage-scene, like it was in HW. But right now it's far less DPS and less party buffs/utility. It's a shame how they oversight this.

[RyuujinZERO]

Depends on the encounter.
In O4S Neo-Exdeath Bard do the same damage as BLM and RDM. (because /mechanics)
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/17#b...obal&spec=Bard

Wow... the Best MCH parse for O4S is only 600 dps ahead of the best PLD (and 1700 dps ahead of the best WHM).

Lesson of the day: Roll a tank, you won't do a whole lot less DPS, but be an actual asset to your party

[AkashiXI]

Depends on the encounter.
In O4S Neo-Exdeath Bard do the same damage as BLM and RDM. (because /mechanics)
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/17#b...obal&spec=Bard

TL;DR O4S
- 4.3k Bard
- 4.5k BLM
- 4.4k RDM
..........
- 3.9k MCH (such good dps)

But, i got the feeling that instead of MCH buffs in 4.1, we will receive BRD nerfs and both jobs will be collecting dust.

p.s. I want MCH to be competitive in Savage-scene, like it was in HW. But right now it's far less DPS and less party buffs/utility. It's a shame how they oversight this.

I still stand by my statement (in the same post you quoted) that Bards damage only becomes comparable to a red mage or black mage when there's a dragoon present. Those numbers you're quoting are Bards who received disembowel, fed Spear, and given Dragon Sight. What other job in this game needs another (DRG) to that extent? And of course a range will get closer on fights that require heavy movement or mechanics, they're consistent damage for that reason.

[Dyvid]

I would wait a few weeks until I start making decision based on OS4 simply because there isn't a huge sample size. I think OS1 and OS2 are giving you a better picture of the overal performance of each class.

[SaitoHikari]

It's posts like yours that irk me the wrong way. The way you're comparing Bard and Machinist is infallible and dumbed down - Bard is in no way an easy job to perform with in Raid. Is it as hard as MCH? No, but to say it's like your comparison just shows your disdain towards the meta currently. Don't lash out at a job that's perfectly tuned (Bard) for its role, that's a mob mentality that'll end up nerfing a job that doesn't need it.

Also, Bard does nowhere near the damage a red mage or black mage does. With Dragon Sight and Disembowel (along with Battle Litany), they're comparing, however those are buffs that are given from another job. Bard is nowhere near the level of the caster counterparts.

Ehhh. I think it is possible for a Bard to catch a Red Mage or a Black Mage in raw DPS, but they do require party buffs from other classes to do so (especially Astrologian's Spear). Bard also has a super high skill ceiling (probably the highest of every DPS in the game in terms of raw optimization) that shouldn't be underestimated, there's a reason why Bards have a reputation for being a low DPS class but every raider will tell you it's actually the other way around. It's also due to how the critical stat works differently for Bards than other classes - for other classes, it generally just causes bigger numbers. For Bards, it causes bigger numbers AND lets us attack more often, and that's something that will become more apparent throughout the patch cycle as our crit rate increases.

Machinist, though, is undoubtedly in serious trouble. I feel they should just overhaul the entire class again, because it's clear the devs don't really know what they want Machinist to be in the first place. I honestly can't think of a single thing they can do anymore that Bard won't beat them at, besides maybe Hypercharge. Ryuujin put it best.

How can you expect to address a problem properly if you bury the quantitative data?

Qualitative data ie. "I feel like my DPS as a MCH is much lower than the other DPS I party with" is not useful to anyone. I've seen examples of every class saying they feel out-classed by every other class; even seen SAMs complaining their DPS is too low. But MCH is right, they don't just feel weak, they are weak, objectively. But a large body of quantitative data is need however not only to confirm that, but figure out how much weaker, and where and why they are coming up short, and what adjustments could be made to fix it.

Right now MCH's weakness is demonstrated to be twofold; the highest performing players are coming out wayyyyy below their compatriots (Often as much as 20%), while the bell curve average MCH is also under-performing. This means the problem is fundamental to the class, and not simply that the class has a very high skill ceiling.

When you look at Bard data, the bell curve average being low still exists for Bards too, but the highest performing Bards are consistently matching higher performing players of other classes, while the highest performing MCHs (and Summoners) are still miles behind. And then you look at the link below, which is data collected from every parse recorded for O1S, which means a sample size of at least 20,000 fights.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42

There is a big, BIG problem when the top performing players in the world of two DPS classes are 300-400 DPS below the top performing players of every other DPS class in the game. Especially when Summoner isn't really support by any stretch of the imagination, and Machinist are far less supporty than Bards are.

(Oh, and the current highest performing MCH in the world at O1S also plays Bard and has a recorded Bard parse with 200 DPS higher than their MCH.)