SE, We need to talk about Leatherworker ...

[QT_Melon]

How do you know that? I often log on, cycle my retainers, and log off. Takes maybe three minutes.

Still more time spent than others on average can. Until they develop an API for that...

The exact quote is "I'm awash in skins, manes and hairs."

Tsk tsk tsk. That's dishonest quoting on your part, you didn't even include an ellipsis. I've seen lawyers try that trick in their briefs, pretending something or someone said something other than what was really said, in an effort to win an argument. It doesn't fool the court, the law clerks always check. All it accomplishes is damaging of the lawyer's credibility.

Not surprisingly, the same thing can happen when a person quotes dishonestly on an internet forum, where everyone's a judge.

A partial quote is that is not out of context of what you are saying is in no way dishonest. Nice try. Get back to the point.

The point is, that they have offered a remedy in the past for mats if they are problematic.

[Silverbane]

A partial quote is that is not out of context of what you are saying is in no way dishonest.

Sure it is. You were criticizing me for being off topic because I said "awash in manes" and the thread is about Leatherworkers, but in fact I wrote (led with even) skins, not manes, and skins are directly relevant to Leatherworkers. So your criticism was dishonest, and supported by a dishonest quote.

Even if you don't understand that it's a dishonest tactic (and to support an invalid ad-hominem as well, in this case, a double fault) I think most of the readers here will. And that's what important: just like in court, the goal of an argument is to convince members of the "jury," not your opponent.

Of course, the only jury that really matters is the developers. And they don't seem to agree with you.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Still more time spent than others on average can.

Gotta put in above the average work level if you want to achieve above the average result. Do not need an API for that - you just need to accept that you cannot get the maximum result with the minimum of effort.

Are the manes/hairs an annoying problem, especially if you intend to go hunting for them yourself? Yup. Don't think anyone's denying that anywhere in this thread. The solutions, for whatever reason, seem to be anathema to you, on the basis that "its not fair because not everyone can do those". Well, maybe not, but most can, they merely choose not to, for one reason or another in their personal lives. Nothing wrong with that at all - but bear in mind, again, that you do not get maximum results with minimum effort.

[QT_Melon]

Nothing wrong with that at all - but bear in mind, again, that you do not get maximum results with minimum effort.

Sorry but sending out a retainer is not "maximum effort"

What is with the strawman logic here? Was there EVER an argument about asking for "Maximum results"? A possibility of having a vendor similar to HW is maximum results now"?

Sure it is. You were criticizing me for being off topic because I said "awash in manes" and the thread is about Leatherworkers, but in fact I wrote (led with even) skins, not manes, and skins are directly relevant to Leatherworkers.

So 2/3 of your reply was off topic which now equals "none of it?" No sorry, try again. You decided to intentionally include those in your reply.

[Silverbane]

(responding to Roth) What is with the strawman logic here? ...

(Responding to me) So 2/3 of your reply was off topic which now equals "none of it?" No sorry, try again. You decided to intentionally include those in your reply.

LOL. You post something 100% off-topic that is nothing but personal attacks on two other posters, and you complain because I included Weaver mats along with Leatherworker mats in a four-word list? And where is this "none of it" from? You put it in quotes, as if I said it, but it's not in the post you are responding to, or in any other post in this thread for that matter.

I'd like to think you know how to have an honest and logical debate with someone, but I don't see any evidence of that in your posts.

[QT_Melon]

LOL. You post something 100% off-topic that is nothing but personal attacks on two other posters, and you complain because I included Weaver mats along with Leatherworker mats in a four-word list? And where is this "none of it" from? You put it in quotes, as if I said it, but it's not in the post you are responding to, or in any other post in this thread for that matter.

I'd like to think you know how to have an honest and logical debate with someone, but I don't see any evidence of that in your posts.

Can you go back and re-read the thread please?

ad Hominem much?

Pointing out logical fallacy is not the same as a personal attack, which is an attack on one's character. You're trying to dismiss something you stated as not part of the post. That's not true. You can't come in this thread and say something like "I got some tiger hides, and the tea in China tastes bad " and not have people pointing out you mentioned the tea in China. "Well my topic is still on topic because I mentioned the hides first and you're questioning me about the tea in China!"

Square did a good job on the dawn serge mats. Players could hunt manes and hairs and make some good money if they had no other way to.

I'd agree if this wouldn't lead to botting, or people with multiple retainers to take the advantage over the player who needs the money. It was bad enough prior zones had bots, like for the fleece and snurble tufts, and other areas as well. The other thing is there's NQ gear that uses the same mats and sells cheaper, which will cause a disinterest in selling the gear if someone, for some reason botches it becoming HQ.

I do remember however, prices adjusting when Aquapolis dropped the felts. Were the yarns dropping in Canals? I had gotten various lumbers and the Cloths for 1 star crafts...but I can't confirm the yarns and surge, since none have dropped when I was doing maps.

[Silverbane]

Can you go back and re-read the thread please?

Oh, I did much better than that. I searched the entire text of the thread for the word "none."
Your supposed quote "none of it" didn't show up, much less as something I posted.
You just made it up.

ad Hominem much?

Pointing out your false statements isn't ad hominem. Go look up the term before you trot it out. Here, let me help:

"a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument -- rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself." -- Wikipedia.

Pointing out that your portraying of the phrase "none of it" as a quote (or as something I posted) is dishonest is not an ad hominem, but simply a conclusion easily drawn from the facts.

FYI, arguing (in particular, arguing points of law, science, and technology) is a big part of what I do for a living.

[QT_Melon]

Oh, I did much better than that. I searched the entire text of the thread for the word "none."
Your supposed quote "none of it" didn't show up, much less as something I posted.
You just made it up.

The argument you tried to make was that the mane and hair was irrelevant because you stated skins. When in fact 2 of the 3 items has to do with what I was talking about. You reached the conclusion I was off topic/deceitful by pulling from your very statement. Regardless if I mentioned the quote by whole or not it was in context to what you wrote. Or are you denying that the hair and mane should not be in question despite the fact you said it? Is your statement relevant or not?

FYI, arguing (in particular, arguing points of law, science, and technology) is a big part of what I do for a living.

Nice argument from authority fallacy there.


You cannot bully me, or try some scare tactic when I'm responding to your statements by calling me deceitful or dishonest because it is none of those things. I won't back down when someone is trying those kind of scare tatics and making personal attacks on my character. I will stand up for myself. So you can stop it or get back to the point.

There is something a bit wrong when an overworld mob drop is harder to acquire than a gated node. Whether this can be remedied by an increase of percentage of drops (I wouldn't know how much would be fair I think the devs need to look at the objective on it) or making it a vendor item or Canal drop would greatly be appreciated.

If the intended purpose was to get people out in overworld and harvest by battle classes, people who are in battle classes find this frustrating and everyone will go to the path of least resistance. So people who have been able to afford battle retainers, and extra ones at that are gaining a distinct advantage and this is unbalanced play.

[Silverbane]

... people with multiple retainers to take the advantage over the player who needs the money ...

Major point: There is no "player who needs the money," just players who want the money. And the game provides plenty if the player is willing to do the work.

Minor point: all characters (above the required level) can have multiple retainers: two each. And every player paying the standard subscription can have multiple characters.
Therefore every player paying the standard subscription can have several retainers, no extra charge.

It can be a pain moving things from character to character though. A big pain sometimes.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Sorry but sending out a retainer is not "maximum effort"

What is with the strawman logic here? Was there EVER an argument about asking for "Maximum results"? A possibility of having a vendor similar to HW is maximum results now"?

Who said that sending a retainer out once was maximum effort? All I said was that you cannot expect the best possible results (maximum results) with the minimum amount of effort (sending a retainer out once). You have to be there for the retainer when it gets back, so you can send it out again, then again, then again. IE - sending it out more "than average" which is what you were complaining about in the post I replied to!