A tank's concern

[Cynfael]

Splitting of hairs.

There are also situations even in AoE where the PLD's incoming damage is adequately balanced by a healer's ticking HoT and/or oGCD healing abilities, making Clemency a pure DPS loss and an MP dump.

I get your theory, but at this point it isn't "meta," so when it comes to duty finder, I stick with the broader generalization of Clemency as an emergency tool.

[KalinOrthos]

I know right. We, my normal group, sat down last night and actually took a look at how hard the new mobs are hitting. The small trash auto attack for 1k non crit and the large trash hit from 3 to 5k. Start getting Crits and direct hits and boom tank drops like a rock. The dungeons are not the same as they were at endgame HW. At least not yet. The my deeps meta that is lingering is causing more harm than good in the average duty queue.

Man, I roll my eyes so hard at anyone who unironically refers to the meta for what they should be going for. I swear, a lot of the people who seriously use it as a standard to go by use it as some sort of holy book requiring strict adherence. That's not to say that it doesn't have its uses, but when we get too many people saying "Well, it's meta to do this", we get to the garbage we have now.

[Furious]

Splitting of previously split hairs.

Clemency is not an emergency tool. It is a tool, to be used in a fashion that enables the most efficient management of health and damage available to the party. The same as every tool possessed by every player.

There are very few (no?) hots that don't require a gcd. A gcd is a holy or a gravity. A hot can be put up before a pull, but in an aoe pull that can mean a healer gets hit.

If the damage isn't high enough to require more than ogcd heals, I have no idea why we are even talking about who is healing.. who cares? You aren't choosing between clemency and making the healer heal in that situation. If someone needs to give up damage to heal in aoe, it should be the paladin, not the healer. What the meta is doesn't really matter; what works best invariably becomes the meta. How long it takes depends on how entrenched the old meta is.

Clemency is a cheap and efficient heal on a class that has very good mana regeneration, who cannot be interrupted while casting, who wants to generate healing enmity, who has little aoe damage, and can allow classes who have very strong aoe damage to continue doing that damage. It is also an emergency tool in cases where you don't want to be casting it (single target or low target). You say you get the theory, but if you still think of clemency as an emergency tool you don't get it.

If you're using plinkaplink total eclipse at any point that the healer is casting an on-gcd healing spell on you, your group lost damage.

[Kabzy]

If a tank dies because a healer was DPSing, it's 100% the healers fault.

If a tank dies and used no defensive CDs while the healer was DPSing, they are a terrible tank but it's 100% the healers fault.

Keeping in mind we are talking about DF dungeon content, there is nothing strong enough to force tanks to need to use CDs to survive. Instead the healer will simply have to perform its primary role to a better extent. Our DPS, as much as some of us love it, is not our primary objective. Not all tanks will be terrible, but when they do pop up, it's up to us to adapt to them. Whether anyone likes it or not, tanks generally dictate the pace of the duty.

Of course this is only something I apply to random DF parties. If it's a tank I know, they better up their game because technically our DPS contribution should outweigh theirs.

[Feidam]

Man, I roll my eyes so hard at anyone who unironically refers to the meta for what they should be going for. I swear, a lot of the people who seriously use it as a standard to go by use it as some sort of holy book requiring strict adherence. That's not to say that it doesn't have its uses, but when we get too many people saying "Well, it's meta to do this", we get to the garbage we have now.

I was agreeing with your sarcastic take on the meta not agreeing with the meta. The rest of the post was to show the amount of damage people are taking to highlight they need to be backing away from it. So I think we are agreeing with it each other.

[ManuelBravo]

IF a tank ask if big pulls are ok, Healer agrees and does more than 2 sets at once ( based on newer dungeons ) it's the tanks fault for not gauging properly. IF healer complains and wants more and Tank goes down ( even with CD ) it's a Healers fault. IF healer ignores tanks request of not casting until pull is over and gets healer killed, its a healers fault. IF DPS runs ahead and grabs mobs on purpose it's a DPS fault. IF Tank uses markers and people can't count or follow order its DPS Fault. IF people don't communicate IT'S Everyone's FAULT.

[BloodRubyXII]

I mean when healers were literally getting dogged on for not dpsing before, it's no surprise now that they're trying it - at a point when it's not really ideal because tanks are getting hit harder in dungeons again especially on multi pack pulls.

[KalinOrthos]

I was agreeing with your sarcastic take on the meta not agreeing with the meta. The rest of the post was to show the amount of damage people are taking to highlight they need to be backing away from it. So I think we are agreeing with it each other.

Oh, I wasn't criticizing you. I was just showing my exasperation with the people who follow the meta as scripture. It was not meant at you, I was just jumping off your point. I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was criticizing you, I didn't mean it that way at all.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I mean when healers were literally getting dogged on for not dpsing before, it's no surprise now that they're trying it - at a point when it's not really ideal because tanks are getting hit harder in dungeons again especially on multi pack pulls.

Admittedly, the above reason is why I'm kiiinda quick to boot DPSing healers, especially when they're letting someone die. As in, one death = auto kick. I've seen enough of such "healers" to know how it's going to work out from that one wipe.

[KDSilver]

quote

I don't really see how were your runs but I can share my personnal experience with you.

First using aoe heal while you're the only one to take damage is a mistake from these healers, cause well, obviously, there's only you who need heeling so single target heal are better and should be used.
However, if you're talking about bosses in general, there are some times when I personnaly only cast aspected helios or medica II when aoe damages are made because the next aoe will come later and my regen will heal everyone to full life. I rely a lot on regens and oGCD like essential dignity, tetragrammation... which are instant and powerful.
So there are two situations. Or you were paniced that everyone wasn't healed fully or you had indeed bad healers that didn't know what they were doing.
But regens are strong.

Don't know if it helps.