A tank's concern

[chs724]

many tanks still pull like in the last days of HW without even paying attention on my manapool or GCDs. well why should healers pay attention than?

[Age_of_Oblivion]

I don't have much to add to this discussion other than a general notification that if there is a group consisting of a WHM and two BLM, please don't be shocked when your tank is straining for the wall to wall pulls.

[Furious]

Bad healers. The good ones know how to balance DPS with healing requirements.

If you have to use Clemency for something other than a true emergency or to activate your own Divine Veil, that usually means either the healer is shitty or you at least believe that they are.

Not really true.

In AoE healers will absolutely shit on PLD dps if the pld can stay alive. WHMs in particular, but all of the healers, do insane aoe dps if they are allowed to cast their aoe spells (or spread their dots in the case of scholar) - in many cases the healer will beat atleast one or both of your DPS if it isn't sustained for too long (its also very mp-costly). In single target, the healer should really be healing while dpsing.

If you get a healer that is spamming holy or gravity in aoe situations as a pld, thank your lucky stars and go about keeping yourself alive with clemency and riot blade in between aoe damage to let them keep aoeing. Clemency is also massive enmity, about equal with flash every cast if you are missing enough HP. Consider the healer's aoe as "your damage" that you are spending mana on as you cast clemency to replace "their healing".

To put it into numbers, total eclipse hits for around ~1300 or so, while gravity can easily hit for 3000 or more on the first target. Id prefer it if the AST was casting gravity than casting benefic while I total eclipse. They can supplement your clemencys with ogcd heals that don't cost dps if you aren't keeping up with the incoming damage.

[Cynfael]

Snip.

What you describe only works when both players are on the same page.

If there is an understanding that the PLD will self-sustain to prolong the healer's DPS window, sure, go for it; otherwise both players will stop attacking to heal. That's why I don't suggest it for random duties.

[Furious]

What you describe only works when both players are on the same page.

If there is an understanding that the PLD will self-sustain to prolong the healer's DPS window, sure, go for it; otherwise both players will stop attacking to heal. That's why I don't suggest it for random duties.

That's not what you said. If a healer is spamming aoe then you can freely use clemency and the world will be a better place. The healer won't respond to your health bar if it doesn't fall low enough, and thus the group's dps is higher. It doesn't necessarily need to be organised. In fact, the more we can encourage the behavior, the better. Paladin aoe dps remains lacking even with the addition of total eclipse, but the addition of the trait that halves mana costs of our abilities along with making us immune to casting interruption means that clemency has become an actual effective recovery tool that the paladin can use to sustain themselves through aoe pulls to allow the healer to dps.

This isn't something that only organised groups can do; it is something that we should aim to promote as the meta for paladins in dungeons. Paladins can tank and heal at the same time effectively, in aoe pulls where they lack damage there is no reason they shouldn't do both.

[Cynfael]

Splitting of hairs.

There are also situations even in AoE where the PLD's incoming damage is adequately balanced by a healer's ticking HoT and/or oGCD healing abilities, making Clemency a pure DPS loss and an MP dump.

I get your theory, but at this point it isn't "meta," so when it comes to duty finder, I stick with the broader generalization of Clemency as an emergency tool.

[Furious]

Splitting of previously split hairs.

Clemency is not an emergency tool. It is a tool, to be used in a fashion that enables the most efficient management of health and damage available to the party. The same as every tool possessed by every player.

There are very few (no?) hots that don't require a gcd. A gcd is a holy or a gravity. A hot can be put up before a pull, but in an aoe pull that can mean a healer gets hit.

If the damage isn't high enough to require more than ogcd heals, I have no idea why we are even talking about who is healing.. who cares? You aren't choosing between clemency and making the healer heal in that situation. If someone needs to give up damage to heal in aoe, it should be the paladin, not the healer. What the meta is doesn't really matter; what works best invariably becomes the meta. How long it takes depends on how entrenched the old meta is.

Clemency is a cheap and efficient heal on a class that has very good mana regeneration, who cannot be interrupted while casting, who wants to generate healing enmity, who has little aoe damage, and can allow classes who have very strong aoe damage to continue doing that damage. It is also an emergency tool in cases where you don't want to be casting it (single target or low target). You say you get the theory, but if you still think of clemency as an emergency tool you don't get it.

If you're using plinkaplink total eclipse at any point that the healer is casting an on-gcd healing spell on you, your group lost damage.