A tank's concern

[Feidam]

I would like to address this from the tanking perspective. First off, I would ask in what dungeons does this happen? I've seen it myself when groups will ask me to do big pulls in the 50/60 roulettes. (Can't speak for 70 yet.) I would say the tank IS bad if you request they not do the massive pulls and/or the party comp isn't right for AOE things. As a tank I would like to know what would you prefer we do in those situations and under what circumstances a massive pull would be considered a good idea?

For example: If we have two BLM's or two RDM, or a mix of both. Would that be a good party to pull a mass with because of the potential AOE Damage? Or would it still be best to stick with only a few?

Depends on gear of all involved. Dps, tank and healer. Had a tank last night in the 63 dungeon mass pull and constantly drop grit. Even with grit and cool downs she was a mana sponge. Without grit it was a night mare to keep her up. I did but it wasn't easy.

[Claire_Pendragon]

While I havent run into this myself, I can say that when Im healing, or any role, I tend to go into muscle memory mode, after having played a job long enough, and when SB hit, I would "check" certain UI elements at certain intervals, depending on how often i had to before.

In short, I looked at HP every 4th GCD in 4man dungeons, as a Healer in 3.x.
But now, even if I stare at HP, a persons HP can go from full to less than 10% right after my GCD started, leaving me with only oGCDs as a means to respond. (on occasion, the enemy then lands a critical hit, and they die anyways)

But every once in awhile, my mind would wander, and I get back into 3 stones, and a cure, mentality, and next thing I know, after 1 stone, the tanks dead.

If the tank has the gear from the dungeon, or better, and uses CDs, I can throw in a stone every 2-5 GCDs, but most dont, and its quite different from what im used to, definitely will take me while to put this into muscle memory, so when I start to auto-pilot Im naturally looking at HP bars every GCD in 4man dungeons. (I honestly havent run into a tank who uses CDs properly, they either try to stack them all at the start, all in the mid, all at the end, or just rampart at the start, and thats it, and if its on CD, they use nothing, not even anticipation. Sometimes an undergeared tank will mass pull, and only use convalescence, and every GCD they go from full hp to 10%. Yeah I may heal them back to full each GCD, but it only takes a crit or a few direct hits, and they die, which happens enough to be annoyed by it.)

[GeekMatt]

Are you basing this on the cast times you see next to the healers names?

Using heals with cast-times is pretty much the last step in the process of keeping you alive for me, since the instant/castless ones are generally free. On both WHM and AST it's not unusual to wait for the tank to get low, since benediction (WHM) will totally refill your HP in an instant and now has a much lower CD time, so it sees more use than before but is most practical when your HP is lower, and Essential Dignity (AST) is more potent if you have less HP.

If your HP isn't getting low enough because you're using Clemency, you'll see less heals incoming.

[KalinOrthos]

Are you basing this on the cast times you see next to the healers names?

...

If your HP isn't getting low enough because your using Clemency, you'll see less heals incoming.

I don't want to sound catty, but is below 30% low enough to start using Clemency? Because that's the point I start spamming it. And I have a few healers leveled to 60, I know there are a few insta-cast spells, especially with things like Siwftcast and Lightspeed. I'm not seeing anything like that though, all I'm seeing is healthbars going down and down, never up until the healer started casting Medica/Helios.

[ManuelBravo]

This is a genuine question, not intended to call anyone out.

Is this a problem that I am personally at fault with, or were these just some bad healers who don't know how to do their job? I am most certainly not opposed to healers dealing damage, it's why I do smaller pulls, so that I don't take as much damage and healers can DPS without worry about me going down in a few crits, but when they focus exclusively on DPSing, it becomes a problem.

It's not your fault. healers trying to be helpful and still haven't properly adjusted. If you see them doing that and wipe. Please give them a reminder, "guys while I do appreciate the dps, please keep me alive. " If they take it as an offense vote kick them.

[KalinOrthos]

It's not your fault. healers trying to be helpful and still haven't properly adjusted. If you see them doing that and wipe. Please give them a reminder, "guys while I do appreciate the dps, please keep me alive. " If they take it as an offense vote kick them.

Which is what I did to the first guy. Asked him to keep me up, he told me to stop being bad and stop complaining. Which felt weird because I've gotten nothing but praise from my previous groups about how I didn't seem to take any damage at all. My hang up is, because it was three in a row, if it was something I was doing wrong, and it's comforting to know I seem to be okay.

[ManuelBravo]

... it was three in a row, if it was something I was doing wrong, and it's comforting to know I seem to be okay.

Your fine, if you get trolls like that their a dime a dozen. If I were you I would give them a fair warning. 3 wipes your out. If DPS on your side otherwise refuse to tank and let them kick you to avoid penalty. They need tanks more than healers right now anyways. When that happens to me I let them know ahead of time. after second death. "guys this is insane I shouldn't be going down. Healers thx for helping dps however healing should be your priority. If I go down a third time and it's not a boss fight I will vote kick or refuse to tank until you leave." It may be harsh but they are ruining the run and I rather not deal with it. Usually DPS will be on your side. Just remember your job is to keep enmity. If they see you heal here and there they can't blame you. Also make sure to blacklist them so you don't party with them in the future.

[KalinOrthos]

When that happens to me I let them know ahead of time. after second death. "guys this is insane I shouldn't be going down. Healers thx for helping dps however healing should be your priority. If I go down a third time and it's not a boss fight I will vote kick or refuse to tank until you leave." It may be harsh but they are ruining the run and I rather not deal with it. Usually DPS will be on your side. Just remember your job is to keep enmity. If they see you heal here and there they can't blame you. Also make sure to blacklist them so you don't party with them in the future.

I might have to start doing that if it continues. Maybe not even when we go down, but when I have to start spamming Clemency on myself and the DPS.

[Kabzy]

If a tank dies because a healer was DPSing, it's 100% the healers fault.

If a tank dies and used no defensive CDs while the healer was DPSing, they are a terrible tank but it's 100% the healers fault.

Keeping in mind we are talking about DF dungeon content, there is nothing strong enough to force tanks to need to use CDs to survive. Instead the healer will simply have to perform its primary role to a better extent. Our DPS, as much as some of us love it, is not our primary objective. Not all tanks will be terrible, but when they do pop up, it's up to us to adapt to them. Whether anyone likes it or not, tanks generally dictate the pace of the duty.

Of course this is only something I apply to random DF parties. If it's a tank I know, they better up their game because technically our DPS contribution should outweigh theirs.

[ManuelBravo]

IF a tank ask if big pulls are ok, Healer agrees and does more than 2 sets at once ( based on newer dungeons ) it's the tanks fault for not gauging properly. IF healer complains and wants more and Tank goes down ( even with CD ) it's a Healers fault. IF healer ignores tanks request of not casting until pull is over and gets healer killed, its a healers fault. IF DPS runs ahead and grabs mobs on purpose it's a DPS fault. IF Tank uses markers and people can't count or follow order its DPS Fault. IF people don't communicate IT'S Everyone's FAULT.