The endless battle - Tank attributes

[Hruodig]

By the same token, your Meta is irrelevant to SE and they will design gear and encounters around their design imperatives. They will balance skills, stats and potencies based on their criteria, not the DPS meta. If their goals conflict with the DPS meta, guess who wins?

And it's on se to change that in a meaningful way, which they have utterly failed to do time and time again so far. Ultimately the meta will always revolve around maximizing raid dps in order to clear encounters faster-as long as the win state continues to be "reduce boss's hp to 0", that will not change.

[Crater]

If their goals conflict with the DPS meta, guess who wins?

I don't know who "wins" in that scenario but I do know that any game developer who ignores their players, doesn't listen to them when they tell them what they do and do not find fun about the game, and ultimately fails to take into account the way that their game actually works in favour of some prima donna "vision" of how they think the game should work, will inevitably "lose" as soon as those players realize that the developer is no longer trying to make the game fun for them.

[Kosmos992k]

And it's on se to change that in a meaningful way, which they have utterly failed to do time and time again so far. Ultimately the meta will always revolve around maximizing raid dps in order to clear encounters faster-as long as the win state continues to be "reduce boss's hp to 0", that will not change.

And this is what I do not understand about encounter design in FFXIV. It's overly focused on tank busters so you have to have a tank front and center. If reducing the boss HP to 0 as quickly as possible is the goal, then the best strategy for the boss is to kill the healer and the DPS and ignore the tank. It strikes me that with a lot more adds, crowd control to protect healers and DPS becomes more important. So if our gear and abilities are able to largely mitigate the damage of adds, yet the adds could quickly shred the non tanks; the best way for the tank to kill the boss quickly is to maintain good crowd control of the adds, and intercept large focused AoEs. After all, with even rudimentary AI, Bosses should know that killing healers takes priority over tanks, and killing DPS comes next to reduce the rate at which they are taking damage.

But encounters are frequently designed around a single Boss, large front cleaves and AoE Mechanics that affect everyone. So the MT keeps the boss pointed in the right direction to avoid cleaves and the DPS beat the living crap out of the Boss from behind. Followed by everyone dancing to the new AoE tune. I think that we need more adds in boss fights and less emphasis on central AoEs. Make the tanks earn their living by keeping others alive, make it more interesting than simply popping a CD to mitigate a tank buster.

[aleph_null]

By the same token, your Meta is irrelevant to SE and they will design gear and encounters around their design imperatives. They will balance skills, stats and potencies based on their criteria, not the DPS meta. If their goals conflict with the DPS meta, guess who wins?

The goal of players will always be to maximize dps while meeting healing/mitigation checks. Additional hp and overhealing don't kill the boss faster. If turtle tanking allows healers to dps more than what we lose from tank stance penalty then we'll stay in tank stance. The devs give us the tools (skills, stats, gear, etc), we maximize dps based on what we get. What they want us to do with those tools doesn't matter, what matters to us is what we can actually do with hose tools.

[Hruodig]

And this is what I do not understand about encounter design in FFXIV. It's overly focused on tank busters so you have to have a tank front and center. If reducing the boss HP to 0 as quickly as possible is the goal, then the best strategy for the boss is to kill the healer and the DPS and ignore the tank. It strikes me that with a lot more adds, crowd control to protect healers and DPS becomes more important. So if our gear and abilities are able to largely mitigate the damage of adds, yet the adds could quickly shred the non tanks; the best way for the tank to kill the boss quickly is to maintain good crowd control of the adds, and intercept large focused AoEs. After all, with even rudimentary AI, Bosses should know that killing healers takes priority over tanks, and killing DPS comes next to reduce the rate at which they are taking damage.

But encounters are frequently designed around a single Boss, large front cleaves and AoE Mechanics that affect everyone. So the MT keeps the boss pointed in the right direction to avoid cleaves and the DPS beat the living crap out of the Boss from behind. Followed by everyone dancing to the new AoE tune. I think that we need more adds in boss fights and less emphasis on central AoEs. Make the tanks earn their living by keeping others alive, make it more interesting than simply popping a CD to mitigate a tank buster.

I mean, it just sounds like you're whining about them not making the kind of game you want them to make, to be frank. If they did go down this route, the truly good players would either adapt and make the best of the new design, or find a different game that plays the way they want to play.

[Ameela]

So, what is that candy and how is it's value measured?

The candy would be our damage and I think a good way to damage it would be to compare it to our damage in the last expansion.
I don't know about you but I think it pretty frustrating that after leveling from 60 to 70 and grinding gear that's 50 iL better than what I had previously I only see my DPS increase by like 500, assuming I'm wearing the "correct" accessories. This is even more frustrating when you consider the fact that tank's DPS rotations got even more complicated in this expansion, maybe with the exception of DRK, so much effort for so little reward just feels bad.

[Umbreon_skystorm]

SNIP

Tanking any battle have 3 "types of damage"

1º Normal auto attacks and High damage attacks
On this type of damage, we usually use a Cooldown during the beginning and after the party gets used to it you do it without cooldowns depending on the battle and the Cd management for the fight

2º Tankbuster
Depending on the type of damage and the amount of damage you will use more than one colldown depending on the situation

3º Worldwide AOE

This kind of damage is not that high and you can have a reprisal to help healers out.

So since tanking is just press a button to win, it's not that rewarding just to stay alive, but to stay alive and find a way to help more with the dps by turning off the tankstance and don't get myself killed and do not giving the healer a hard time is rewarding for me.

(all the "and"s in the last paragraph were intentional XD )

[Kosmos992k]

The candy would be our damage and I think a good way to damage it would be to compare it to our damage in the last expansion.
I don't know about you but I think it pretty frustrating that after leveling from 60 to 70 and grinding gear that's 50 iL better than what I had previously I only see my DPS increase by like 500, assuming I'm wearing the "correct" accessories. This is even more frustrating when you consider the fact that tank's DPS rotations got even more complicated in this expansion, maybe with the exception of DRK, so much effort for so little reward just feels bad.

Sorry, I think that comparing our damage tno to our damage in the prior expansion is a false comparison since so much was changed with regard to our job skills. I feel it's only meaning ful to compare damage of like vs like. In other words, relative to other tanks.

[Kinkoz]

And this is what I do not understand about encounter design in FFXIV. It's overly focused on tank busters so you have to have a tank front and center. (...)

But encounters are frequently designed around a single Boss, large front cleaves and AoE Mechanics that affect everyone.

Then... The encounter design isn't overly focused on tank busters, is it?

Killing the boss ASAP has been a focus throughout almost the entirety of content since the initial raid tiers of 2.0 as fights are either designed such that, in wars of attrition, the boss will generally exhaust the entire party's resources before the boss ever runs out of things to throw at everyone, or there is always a hard enrage built into place to prevent the former. It's one or the other a predominant majority of the time.

So if our gear and abilities are able to largely mitigate the damage of adds, yet the adds could quickly shred the non tanks; the best way for the tank to kill the boss quickly is to maintain good crowd control of the adds, and intercept large focused AoEs.

The first part of what you said are already things, though. As for intercepting large, focused AoEs... Do you mean stack/soak mechanics? Because, otherwise, how is it beneficial at all for the Tank to eat extra, unnecessary damage? That just puts extra strain on the healers, which increasing the chance of failure.

After all, with even rudimentary AI, Bosses should know that killing healers takes priority over tanks, and killing DPS comes next to reduce the rate at which they are taking damage.

But almost no boss in the game is designed like that. I don't even think most MMO bosses in general are designed like that, not counting ones that have an intentional mechanic accounting for such.

Make the tanks earn their living by keeping others alive, make it more interesting than simply popping a CD to mitigate a tank buster.

Pretty sure that Tanks are already doing exactly like that by making sure the boss isn't melting everyone else with its hard-hitting auto-attacks and tank busters.

[Kothos]

Funny facts. People who said the “tank should tank” mantra and DPS is a bad thing to want at this topic. Even though not the discussion I proposed initially never actually cleared Savage neither have tanks at lvl 70.
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