DRK - Excessive Dark Arts

[Derio]

I would rather them buff DRK and WAR than nerf PLD. DRK needs scourge back

[EusisLandale]

The only thing I'd change is remove Dark Arts from Abyssal Drain and have it boost Salted Earth and Salted Earth will drain health from enemies instead.

Why would you do that?

[MoarLegion]

Only it doesn't, since outside of using it for defense or using it to get an easy 50 blood for Delirium, TBN is a damage loss.

People keep saying this but I fail to understand how. You're taking 140 potency of MP and turning it into 380 potency, the MP cost of which is paid for by the time you can even use TBN again. You're only delaying 1 SS/SE combo per minute, or half a dark arts and 10 blood, so you're not delaying your mp regen by any significant amount.

Provided you always have CnS paid for, I cannot understand how turning 140 potency into 380 as often as possible is a DPS loss.

[Raim]

Why would you do that?

Because its clunky to have to DA before every move compared to just having the HP drain effect realistically obtainable over time for each pool and come as a solid, constant pace.

[SyzzleSpark]

People keep saying this but I fail to understand how. You're taking 140 potency of MP and turning it into 380 potency, the MP cost of which is paid for by the time you can even use TBN again. You're only delaying 1 SS/SE combo per minute, or half a dark arts and 10 blood, so you're not delaying your mp regen by any significant amount.

Provided you always have CnS paid for, I cannot understand how turning 140 potency into 380 as often as possible is a DPS loss.

You're not taking 140 potency and turning it into 380 because that 380 is on the GCD. DA is basically a 140 potency off-GCD.

Whenever you're mathing how much of a potency gain something that is on the GCD is, you have to weight it against the existing average potency per GCD.

When you spend a DA's worth of mana to get an extra BS by using TBN, you're only getting a net 240 potency (380-140). And that 240 potency is exactly 10 less than the average PPGCD. Ergo, its a loss. Yes its a small one, but its a far cry from the "spam TBN on CD to proc more Bloodspillers because its a 380 potency gain!"

Honestly someone should delete this thread. The problem with DRK isn't our DA usage, its that we're the lowest tank DPS and offer less utility than PLD.

[Chrono_Rising]

The problem with DRK isn't our DA usage, its that we're the lowest tank DPS and offer less utility than PLD.

I feel the same, the dps problem is that we cannot spam Dark Arts enough to match the potency increase achieved by Warrior and Paladin. For dps, I think drk needs more ways to regenerate mana for more dark arts or moving our GCD blood skills to oGCD skills. What do you think?

I also think shadow wall needs either more time, more utility or a shorter cool down (mitigation of vengence, cooldown time and duration of sentinel, and 0 utility) but thats a different post.

[EusisLandale]

Because its clunky to have to DA before every move compared to just having the HP drain effect realistically obtainable over time for each pool and come as a solid, constant pace.

Abyssal Drain 120 per 2.5, Salted Earth 75 per 3. Over 21 seconds that's 960 and 525. 435 is the potency gain Salted Earth would need to have to match Abyssal Drain in a situation where you have to do it every move.
Realistically though, outside of some stupidly huge pull, about 30 attacks coming in between every Abyssal Drain, you won't be able to keep it up.
Overall though, we're not going to come across many if any situations where we need constant healing from Abyssal Drain which means we also won't need constant healing from Salted Earth. What we do see is situations where we need a big chunk of health NOW so AD being faster than periodic damage means it's the superior option there.

[SyzzleSpark]

I feel the same, the dps problem is that we cannot spam Dark Arts enough to match the potency increase achieved by Warrior and Paladin. For dps, I think drk needs more ways to regenerate mana for more dark arts or moving our GCD blood skills to oGCD skills. What do you think?

I also think shadow wall needs either more time, more utility or a shorter cool down (mitigation of vengence, cooldown time and duration of sentinel, and 0 utility) but thats a different post.

Here is what I would do:

1. Make Shadow Wall last 20 seconds (instead of simply buffing the % or shortening the cooldown - this will make it unique and not simply a clone of Vengeance/Sentinel)
2. Add a CD exclusive to tank stance or with an MP cost (something that costs DPS) that increases our Parry rate and has a 50% chance to proc a -10% damage taken (like a personal Eye 4 an Eye buff) that makes up for the loss of the old Dark Dance+Reprisal synergy and gives us a Clemency/IB equivalent. Currently DRK does not have one of these extra CDs that costs damage but rounds out our CD suite, whereas WAR and PLD do.
3. Double the potency of Plunge, Carve and Spit, and Salted Earth, and increase their recast times by 15-20s. This will be a DPS gain, reduce oGCD bloat, and bring us up to speed in DPS.

[Mithron]

If DRKs don't do enough damage, that's an easy and natural fix that will happen over time. Spamming Dark Arts however isn't something they'll naturally change unless enough people complain about how much they don't like it. That's the point of this thread. It isn't "buff DRKs they suck worst tank" or anything like that, it's how we fundamentally play the job and its style versus other jobs, that's what really matters way more.

[SyzzleSpark]

If DRKs don't do enough damage, that's an easy and natural fix that will happen over time. Spamming Dark Arts however isn't something they'll naturally change unless enough people complain about how much they don't like it. That's the point of this thread. It isn't "buff DRKs they suck worst tank" or anything like that, it's how we fundamentally play the job and its style versus other jobs, that's what really matters way more.

The point is a lot of us LIKE the DA playstyle. A lot of us LIKE having to actively boost individual hits with extra timed button presses. Its like doing a Smash attack in SSB. In terms of plain-old muscle memory and the way the job feels in your hands, a lot of us find it engaging, fun, fast paced, and exciting. If you don't want to play a job that requires so many button presses, there are others out there. Its like saying Bloodletter procs feel bad on BRD. They don't. They're amazing.

For me, DA is a button that makes me feel like I'm exploding with power and needing to press it often to keep from losing control and overflowing. Its exciting trying to keep your MP down during BW and Delirium BW windows.

This is not a problem with the job. It is not something that NEEDS fixing. And considering that it is something that makes the job unique, I don't want to see it go away, and again, there are a fair few things about DRK right now that are ACTUAL problems and do need to be addressed. This just really isn't one of them. If anything the jobs playstyle and general feeling in the players' hands is one of the few things they did right in the expansion. Most jobs in this game press a button every 60-90s and and go about their rotation. DRK has to actively press this button to reap the benefits and that is what makes it exciting.

The other thing, is that all of the potency we lost from Reprisal and Low Blow got distributed to our extra DA casts. So without DAing extra abilities not only would they have to put that potency elsewhere, but they would also have to give us some other mana dump that we have to use just as often or completely retune our mana returns (again), lest we be unable to keep our MP down.