Tanks using ilv270 STR acessories

[Sarcatica]

I agree 100% with Reynhart. Despite its numerous problems, in my opinion, TERA did tanking right. In TERA, a perfect tank would be 100% self-sustainable because they wouldn't take any damage.

FFXIV has designed tanks to be braindead dummies for bosses. So yeah I blame the designers.

TERA required that, else you are dead even if you are a tank. This is another game you are talking about, if FFXIV does this as well, you will be seeing more DPS slots in a raid rather than taking more healers or tanks in the end. It's all the same simple question; Do you need the extra survivability? If no, go do your extra DPS. It is that simple. Even TERA's tanks can do obscene amount of damage while tanking perfectly, in essence whatever you can get away with, you generally abuse it.

[Jonnycbad]

It's a chain of events that started with something completely unrelated. SE changed Weakness so that it no longer lowers your HP, but instead lowers your primary damage stat. Since VIT was a primary damage stat for tanks, presumably they decided to uncouple damage from VIT so that they could make that change without either having it affect tanks too much (damage and health penalty) or too little (half the damage penalty other classes got).

So once you have the new Weakness formula no longer affecting VIT and VIT no longer being a damage stat, the only way to stop Gordias from happening again is to role lock the accessories... And then they forgot to lock the older accessories.

[Jonnycbad]

So in other words if tank damage was calculated with VIT, then weakness would not affect their HP OR their damage, giving tanks a pretty good return, and paving ways for zombie builds with tanks as DPS(mostly PLD due to their high dps currently) that as long as they get raised, they have no effective penalty for dying.

[KorenA]

Lulz it's alotta salty tears in this thread, I'll continue to wear full slaying to spite the healers.

[Furious]

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

There's a whole lot of subjectivity in this comment that really is illogical.

A. What is respectable damage? What would you be happy with?
B. Why do tanks need to do a specific value of damage provided they can do their jobs? Whatever level they are set at, that is what people will optimise to, same as dps values.
C. Why wouldn't tank contributions be valued just because they are lower?

The argument just doesn't work; it requires as much subjectivity to pose the question as it does to presuppose an answer from SE. The only answer that will ever matter is "because that's what SE wants".

When you say there's ongoing resistance to tanks doing respectable damage you predispose the listener to assume that that paradigm is in some way valuable intrinsically. It's not. Tanks work just fine as a paradigm at practically any baseline relative damage value, as long as they otherwise work mechanically. What matters is what SE wants for that paradigm.

[NinefoldRakshasa]

What matters is what SE wants for that paradigm.

What matters is what the paying customers want sunshine, better live with that though. And considering you're a pally, your opinion hardly counts.

[Lyth]

...

It's an opinion. There is no such thing as intrinsic value, as it is always ascribed relative to an individual's personal value system. My views here are subjective, just like yours. To pretend otherwise would be disingenuous. This isn't math class, and I unfortunately can't algebraically prove the truthiness of my sentiments. I can, however, express my feelings and opinions on the matter as they've developed over the course of these two expansions.

By "respectable damage", I'm talking about damage as a percentage of total raid dps. You don't want tank dps to proportionally be so high that you overlap with pure damage dealer jobs, when played competantly (as was the case in Final Coil/Gordias). At the same time, if you tune it to be proportionally low, there's less and less incentive to play optimally. The problem that I have with these changes is that with each iteration, the relative proportion of tank dps to raid dps keeps getting scaled back.

Part of the satisfaction of tanking for some players is the fact that, as you refine and optimise your mitigation timing, your dps goes up. You don't just get positive feedback as a tank for positioning well and surviving the fight; you also get it for pushing out damage that people simply weren't expecting you to do on your chosen job. I'm not looking for the illicit thrill that you got when you outperformed a BRD as a STR WAR in T13 while doing all of the tanking mechanics. Those days are over. I'm just looking to be able to chase their heels a little and make 'em sweat.

As a tank in a raid environment, you often end up making sacrifices to facilitate other players and make their jobs easier. But we're not just there as support, we're there to help defeat the boss too. There has to be a certain amount of give and take, and that only happens if we can bring a reasonably significant contribution to the table between the two tanks. Otherwise we're just there to position the boss, do tank mechanics, and watch at the behest of damage dealer roles. You want people to take up the tanking mantle? Let players feel like their Bloodspillers, Fell Cleaves, Holy Spirits, and other assorted attacks matter, for starters. That's really what's at the core of this STR accessory debate.

[YitharV2]

TERA required that, else you are dead even if you are a tank. This is another game you are talking about, if FFXIV does this as well, you will be seeing more DPS slots in a raid rather than taking more healers or tanks in the end. It's all the same simple question; Do you need the extra survivability? If no, go do your extra DPS. It is that simple. Even TERA's tanks can do obscene amount of damage while tanking perfectly, in essence whatever you can get away with, you generally abuse it.

It's definitely true we'd have less tanks. But having 3 tanks in a 24-man raid leads to other problems, suck as tanks trying to wave their e-peen and keep provoking rather than actually doing their job.

I agree that DPS is also the meta in TERA, but it has a lot more skill required even before getting into maximizing DPS. My point wasn't that DPS isn't the meta in TERA. My point was simply that I blame the designers because there's no direction where you can push your job in this game if you just stick to pure tanking. Obviously in TERA, once you practice and memorize a boss' patterns perfectly then you have to optimize DPS to push yourself further, but before that point, you can push yourself by just sticking to pure tanking.

[aleph_null]

I agree that DPS is also the meta in TERA, but it has a lot more skill required even before getting into maximizing DPS.

Obviously in TERA, once you practice and memorize a boss' patterns perfectly then you have to optimize DPS to push yourself further, but before that point, you can push yourself by just sticking to pure tanking.

Well that's pretty much what it's like here, no? You can't tank savage bosses out of tank stance before you memorized the attack patterns perfectly and coordinated mitigations/heals for the whole fight. Just because it's optimal doesn't mean everyone and their grandmas can tank out of tank stance. If it's worth anything, nearly every single pug creator/midas savage clears I've been in had what I consider turtle tank as the "MT", and I'm sure the number of tanks who have done a12s with both tanks completely out of tank stance is ridiculously low. Yeah to be optimal you need to not use tank stance, but the majority of the playerbase aren't skilled enough to be pushing themselves at that point.

[YitharV2]

Well that's pretty much what it's like here, no? You can't tank savage bosses out of tank stance before you memorized the attack patterns perfectly and coordinated mitigations/heals for the whole fight. Just because it's optimal doesn't mean everyone and their grandmas can tank out of tank stance. If it's worth anything, nearly every single pug creator/midas savage clears I've been in had what I consider turtle tank as the "MT", and I'm sure the number of tanks who have done a12s with both tanks completely out of tank stance is ridiculously low. Yeah to be optimal you need to not use tank stance, but the majority of the playerbase aren't skilled enough to be pushing themselves at that point.

I don't entirely disagree but there's a lot to be said about fight design when you can map things out by the GCD. As far as I can tell in this game, mitigation is figuring out when the tankbusters occur and then planning out which cooldowns you're going to use. In TERA the damage was constant like in WoW, so someone could tell you what the attacks were and their tells, but you'd have to figure out the dance yourself. Bosses were still scripted but the attack pattern was far more random.

Also in TERA, this wasn't just at endgame hard mode dungeon level (which is what I'd compare to Savage). This was in every dungeon including leveling dungeons. I'm not so sure I'd say the same of FFXIV.