A PSA to all upset tank players

[Stanelis]

You're not seeing the core of my argument, which is that it's not really about tank DPS in itself. It's about fun. Yes, a lot complain about stance dancing and DPS. Do you know why? Because optimizing DPS is a lot more fun than holding aggro and popping CDs. You can still maximize DPS and get like 2.9k DPS or so on WAR, but it feels very clunky. If all you see is that they're trying to DPS and they shouldn't be DPSing then you're missing the main complaint: it's not fun anymore.

And it still is viable under optimal conditions: tanks shirking each other (shirk is really OP when you use it continually after tank swaps), NINs using shadewalker and damage dealers using enmity reduction skills.

It's because, starting from HW, tanking was dumbed down so all the DPS wanabee could pick up tanking. However, encounters can be tuned (like in the 2.X series of patch) so that holding aggro, mitigating damage and having a true macro view of an encounter (eg what should be the core of the tanks gameplay) become a (fun) challenge.

Personally I don't enjoy at all needing to optimize DPS on a tank. If I wanted to do that I'd just play a DPS. That's also why I didn't partake in any heavensward endgame activities.

That aside, DRK and WAR need to be revamped in order to bring relevant utility to the group that isn't DPS related.

[FallenWings]

It's because, starting from HW, tanking was dumbed down so all the DPS wanabee could pick up tanking. However, encounters can be tuned (like in the 2.X series of patch) so that holding aggro, mitigating damage and having a true macro view of an encounter (eg what should be the core of the tanks gameplay) become a (fun) challenge.

Personally I don't enjoy at all needing to optimize DPS on a tank. If I wanted to do that I'd just play a DPS. That's also why I didn't partake in any heavensward endgame activities.

That aside, DRK and WAR need to be revamped in order to bring relevant utility to the group that isn't DPS related.

Oh 2.X series? You mean stay permanently in Shield Oath/Defiance and mash 123?

Please don't imply that the 2.X series of raids was well designed for tanks. If it was, there wouldn't be the rampant nonsense of single tank encounters or god forbid, that one time that Ramuh was cleared with no tanks.
People played defensively back then because no one knew it was possible for tanks to do more than the bare necessities to clear content. The playerbase, funnily enough, was far less skilled at the time and the game was new. Come Heavensward and the playerbase has matured and along with the new skills, new ways were created to play the tanks.

If you have the ability to do more than hold aggro and mitigate, why wouldn't you do so? Do you consider yourself a good player if you ignore your potential/ability to do more out of pure stubborness to abide by some bygone notion that "tank onri tank dur"?

If you want to talk dumbing down, see Stormblood. Heavensward was anything but dumbing down.

[RaizeGraymalkin]

Mostly WARS complaining because "waaahhh muh dps". How about you...ya know...tank now? Your actual job. Leave the e-peen at the door.

[akaneakki]

Mostly WARS complaining because "waaahhh muh dps". How about you...ya know...tank now? Your actual job. Leave the e-peen at the door.

Dark knight. I mean why rampart over shadowskin. And please stop with your attitutude. Ive seen players who can keep aggro and do good damage. While pure tanks often play super bad. Your attitude proves it.

[Stanelis]

Oh 2.X series? You mean stay permanently in Shield Oath/Defiance and mash 123?

When I talk about content I m obviously talking about what did matter, eg the current tier of content and BCOIL and second coil. Let me remind you that even in the 2.0 dungeons you could wipe and the duty could fail (especially in amdapor keep) if the tank didn't know what to do/where to tank the mobs.

I remember a time when every single point of vitality did actually matter (As on titan or twintania) and when the challenge was to get aggro on adds before they wiped the raid (as an example, see the snakes on T5 or the mobs of T4). Even on encounters such as T7, what actually did matter was the ability to decide how to put the monsters and when. Your example is poorly chosen as ramuh may be one of the easiest boss of the 2.X series of patches.

Also, no, players didn't magically get better in HW. HW had a lack of compelling mechanics for tank and the tanking gameplay was dumbed down for the role, and SE tried to compensate by over emphasizing the DPS aspect of the tanking classes.

And, by the way, the fact that you have 1 or 2 combos on your class doesn't make tanking gameplay less/more interesting/harder.

[Indefiinable]

Yoshi P on numerous occasions has said he wants tanks to tank, healers to heal and dps to deal damage. Therefore if tanks are now taking issue with the fact they can no longer deal as much damage because they need to concentrate on taking and retaining enmity ie tanking, then yes they should start playing another class. Which would then be a totally personal choice and not one that needs forum consensus

[FallenWings]

When I talk about content I m obviously talking about what did matter, eg the current tier of content and BCOIL and second coil. Let me remind you that even in the 2.0 dungeons you could wipe and the duty could fail (especially in amdapor keep) if the tank didn't know what to do/where to tank the mobs.

I remember a time when every single point of vitality did actually matter (As on titan or twintania) and when the challenge was to get aggro on adds before they wiped the raid (as an example, see the snakes on T5 or the mobs of T4). Even on encounters such as T7, what actually did matter was the ability to decide how to put the monsters and when. Your example is poorly chosen as ramuh may be one of the easiest boss of the 2.X series of patches.

Also, no, players didn't magically get better in HW. HW had a lack of compelling mechanics for tank and the tanking gameplay was dumbed down for the role, and SE tried to compensate by over emphasizing the DPS aspect of the tanking classes.

And, by the way, the fact that you have 1 or 2 combos on your class doesn't make tanking gameplay less/more interesting/harder.

I don't know about you, but ARR was by far easier than heavensward especially on the tanking front. See complaints about Gordias/Midas versus... SCOB Savage that no one gave a flying poop about?

And yes, having one combo does infact make it less interesting(2.X PLD) and having more combos and oGCDs to press is infact harder(3.X DRK). How this evades you I have absolutely no clue. You didn't need every point of vit in heavensward or ARR because everything was either overmitigated, or poorly shielded/mitigated due to lack of tank swap because "HERP DERP IM PLD MT" giving the idea that things were "harder" when they frankly were not. Far from it.

If you believe that actually pushing yourself and not relying on the crutch that is Grit/ShO/Defiance is easier than perma tank stance camping with full vit accessories and only mashing aggro combo, then I have no more words left.

But you know, different groups, different mileages. My experiences differ from yours, and it's all subjective in the end.

[SargentToughie]

Snip

I'll admit to having never actually cleared A3S, since my first static broke up at that fight like many others, but even tanking in Gordias wasn't that bad.

I remember seeing a lot of zero damage Hypercompressed plasmas back when that content was still relevant, and this was during the "toxic STR meta" that supposedly made tanks so glassy.

[Kalocin]

Snip

If you have to be using the enmity combo, it really needs to be weaved into the design of the class more or else it's boring and unfun to use, and actually feels like a punishment. I can only use Dark Knight's mana as an example. Literally everything including their shiny new toys are mana based. So when you have to stop using your job to make up for the Samurai 40% higher than other dps, it feels kind of awkward. There are multiple ways to go about this too, such as maybe blood weapon only effects the enmity combo, and suddenly it has use and weaves into the class more. I'm not a class designer so I'm not sure what would work best but right now it's like you have to hit pause, and it's not your choice.

The largest issues are not about DPS but rather the jobs are centered around dpsing except they're not really supposed to be (ie Why doesn't blood price grant an enmity buff instead of mana? Why is BS, a lvl 68 skill a damage only skill?).

[Ignnis]

If you're going to protest anything protest on the forums and feedback with a calm perspective and constructive criticism. Devs/humans are more receptive to calm people willing to have level headed talks with them than people ranting at them.