A PSA to all upset tank players

[Makeda]

Yeah so many people use that argument of "well you're a tank you don't need to do DPS" and I feel like it's such a strawman argument because that's not the core of the issue.

But it is not a strawman argument when so many of the complaints contain "I can no longer stance dance" in them.

Maybe not you, but so many others making the complaint about the new WAR put that comment in their post somewhere - which to me very often explains all of the other problems they are having... Too many complain about other things, and then admit to playing in DPS mode... the mode that is not supposed to be viable tanking anyway...

[Yahallo]

Snip.

While is nice that it is more comfortable to you; it still sort of remains that warrior is supposed to have the smoothest stance dancing among the three tanks due to how their stances are off global. This ease of switch was what made them feel so good to play. Now it just feels clunky trying to gain access to the other half of the job. They took one of the best features of warrior and just gutted it.

Stance Dancing is supposed to be viable while tanking; I am actually hearing some of my friends who switched over to paladin that stance dancing on paladin is viable and works great in single target fights. I've been experimenting with stance dancing on dark knight more as I grow more accustom to it, especially since I don't lose half of my Black Blood. During Susano EX, I found that by the time I get hit by the Tank Buster, Shadow Wall will likely be ready; so I can rather safely turn off grit and pop Rampart and Blood Weapon as long as I have enough aggro built up, which with shirk is usually the case. When Stormsplitter comes up, I have easily enough time to turn on Grit and hit both Shadow Wall and Blackest Night.

Right now, Paladin is done very well as a tank. Dark Knight is doing okay; AoE aggro was kind of gutted and our damage is a bit questionable based on some data, but nothing that some tweaks can't fix and our single target tanking is holding up decently. Warrior seems like it needs some help; I really do not think that the beast gauge should be halved when stance dancing.

Right now, tanks needs changes so that double Paladin isn't a thing, because that just means we traded double warrior for double paladin. There's the issue of our entire right side not giving us damage aside from the materia we slot; no scaling damage from our accessories can and will likely cause issues down the road as ilvl increases. Then there's the issue with tenacity having seemingly negligible effects. Last, but definitely not least, warrior needs some love so that paladin/warrior and dark knight/warrior compositions are viable and competitive with paladin/dark knight.

[Zumi]

To me tanking feels about the same as it does in HW. If not better since they gave paladin an aoe attack. Changes how you play paladin because you still have to flash but you can use this new move that does aoe damage. Made stuff like clemency more useful. Feels a lot better damage wise on Paladin then it did in HW as well. Made better use of moves like divine veil since bosses so far do a lot of aoe and you can help out with that. On paper I didn't think I would like holy spirit but its actually kind of fun once you use it seeing like 8-9k crits while nuking bosses when Requiescat is up.

Feels like they did a good job with tanks. I played my warrior some too leveling dungeon seemed almost the same as HW but haven't got past 60 yet.

[YitharV2]

But it is not a strawman argument when so many of the complaints contain "I can no longer stance dance" in them.

Maybe not you, but so many others making the complaint about the new WAR put that comment in their post somewhere - which to me very often explains all of the other problems they are having... Too many complain about other things, and then admit to playing in DPS mode... the mode that is not supposed to be viable tanking anyway...

You're not seeing the core of my argument, which is that it's not really about tank DPS in itself. It's about fun. Yes, a lot complain about stance dancing and DPS. Do you know why? Because optimizing DPS is a lot more fun than holding aggro and popping CDs. You can still maximize DPS and get like 2.9k DPS or so on WAR, but it feels very clunky. If all you see is that they're trying to DPS and they shouldn't be DPSing then you're missing the main complaint: it's not fun anymore.

And it still is viable under optimal conditions: tanks shirking each other (shirk is really OP when you use it continually after tank swaps), NINs using shadewalker and damage dealers using enmity reduction skills.

[akaneakki]

it's not fun anymore.

Agree. Also many take it offensive trying to play better is such a bad thing. Fun can be discussed however for many challenges are fun. Stance dance was one of them too. I play games to get better. Going in auto mode and pop cds once in a while doesnt make you good, just decent. Anyways please remove tank stance penality.

[SgtPepperUK]

There are clearly two types of tank, those who just want to pure tank as Makeda describes (and I am one of those people too) and those who like to be able to DPS whilst tanking via mechanics such as stance dancing, as demonstrated by YitharV2, be it because they find it more fun than the first style or simply because they like doing DPS.

Not easy for the devs to balance; We can see from the past that, when tanks are given different styles, one becomes preferred over the other.

I've got a feeling it could be a while, if ever, before the devs find a way of accomodating both styles of tank meta.

[YitharV2]

There are clearly two types of tank, those who just want to pure tank as Makeda describes (and I am one of those people too) and those who like to be able to DPS whilst tanking via mechanics such as stance dancing, as demonstrated by YitharV2, be it because they find it more fun than the first style or simply because they like doing DPS.

I do like doing DPS, but more than I just find it more fun. I wouldn't mind if SE just made tanking more engaging in other ways. For example, in TERA, tanks have active mitigation. A perfect tank in TERA takes 0 damage through perfect blocks. It was very engaging. On the other hand, there was quite a learning curve to tanking in TERA.

I really think Heavensward struck a good balance because it allowed the pure tanks to just tank but it allowed others to maximize DPS fluidly while tanking.

My opinion is that SE wants tanking to be super simple so beginners don't have problems. But when there's no engagement and punishment for trying to get more fun out of the job, skilled players won't want to play anymore.

[Kalocin]

So far my biggest gripe as a level 70 tank is actually a lot of dps players, from those who pull for me because I'm keeping packs smaller due to the enmity and damage changes but also those on the forums telling us how we should or shouldn't be playing our jobs. Regarding the playstyle itself as a dark knight, I don't mind it and it feels easier enough although I think there are some changes I would love to see in QoL outside of standard balance changes. These ones are not job breaking but just need to happen (Dark passenger's mana cost and potency means you're never going to use it, blood spiller is kind of boring, blood moves should be oCD etc).

While I'm not going to stop tanking, I likely will only do it for my FC members since they don't trouble me. Likewise I'll probably be leveling a dps now since my daily roulettes will cover the rest of the gear I need.

Personally, I think discussion on the topic will say enough and if we're not having fun we'll find a way to.

[SgtPepperUK]

I do like doing DPS, but more than I just find it more fun.

And I can understand that, even if it's not my preferred way of tanking I get why some people do want to play the way you do.

I really think Heavensward struck a good balance because it allowed the pure tanks to just tank but it allowed others to maximize DPS fluidly while tanking.

The mechanics allowed that, the playerbase...not so much. PLDs became they least sought class for some aspects of endgame and that was a problem, though now it looks like the pendulum may have swung too far the other way.

[Yahallo]

Stance dance is not the problem, was always a silly mechanic with zero skill involved despite what some want to claim. IMO they need to drop that concept and build tanks around active tanking, short cds with a short duration that require good timing. Tanks should be played for people that enjoy this kind of mechanics not for players that want to "DPS" with an extremely easy rotation compare to any DPS class, like Blood Price with Abyssal Drain+Dark Arts spam.

Warrior actually had that short CD and Short Duration that required Good Timing with Inner Beast and had great synergy with their stance dancing. However, that has been hampered upon but the current penalty on Stance Dancing. Rather than building around it, they hampered the ability to do so.

Also Blood Price with Dark Arts Abyssal Drain was more for Aggro+Self Sustain so the healer could get more room to DPS; it wasn't so Dark Knight could have an easy AoE DPS combo. It was really only for those super pulls in dungeons.