Put VIT back in Tank Damage Calculation.

[Abriael]

I mean you have a point. I personally think it'd be a bit more fun for me. But if you make aggro generation hard for good players, then it becomes a nightmare for not so stellar players. Also, spamming Butcher's Block is not my idea of fun.

I wouldn't certainly call it "hard" now. It's slightly more challenging, and it makes tanking a little more fun and tense.

[KisaiTenshi]

thx ive been raiding for over 5 years in here + other mmos ^^

theres a reason why we have a trinity system wich means:

tanks tank in tank stance : does less dmg

dps = obviously doing dps :P

healers = heal with focus on healing and some dps.

everyone is capable to solo stuff.

I've been playing MMO's since the beginning.

What has changed is WoW (a game I've never played) but everyone copies pieces of it without actually taking into account the balance. FFXIV is the first game that I've played that enforced any kind of role, and that kind of thing would have put me off in other games, but really, the reason that put me off in other games was because everyone was basically a DPS + utility. That was it. There was no tanking, it was just pot-spamming and using whatever skill delivers the most damage with the BiS gear you can farm from a dungeon.

FFXI I never played either, but I can tell you from FFXIV V1.0 that was not a very exciting turn-based combat. It was simply too slow.

The next "generation" of MMO's have been lifting entire things from Minecraft, again, without the balance (the entire open world, dig holes anywhere you want, and then craft gear only to have to repeat this with 30 different minerals to level up.)

The problem we keep running into is how to make "anything but a DPS" be able to do anything else but DPS.

I keep seeing are Tanks and Healers that want to DPS instead of playing their role instead of as augmenting their role. You know how many time times I've done PotD as a tank or as a healer? If I go as a healer, I'm super-cautious because I want to actually finish it, so I stand at the doorway while everyone goes DPS nuts on the mobs. If go as tank? And a healer happens to enter the party? seems like they're taking dirt naps at the final boss, every time, I'm not even sure how they are failing to heal themselves. This is where you kinda notice that as a Tank you do not very much damage, but you can last quite a while with the tools you have. PotD does not teach you how to heal or tank. You can learn it if you want to, but it seems like most people that level off of PotD do not know how to do anything but DPS. PotD was a bad thing for teaching players how to play.

So when they try to do actual dungeon content and decide to shortcut the queue by queing as tank or healer? Oh dear, tanking and healing is actually hard with terribad-DPS players.

[YitharV2]

I wouldn't certainly call it "hard" now. It's slightly more challenging, and it makes tanking a little more fun and tense.

Sigh... To quote what the OP said. I mean you look at RDM burst now, imagine if that doesn't change by 4.5 and they don't use their abilities to lower aggro.

All of this is what I'm trying to say but people are very short sighted and are only going "well it's ok for me nowso it must be totally ok forever" (it's mostly PLD saying this, too).

[ErikMynhier]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the Accessories going forward would be role locked? I seem to remember seeing that somewhere. So does that mean Slaying gear won't even be an option for tanks? I don't know that's why I'm asking.


EDIT: Found a thread on it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-current-gear

[Pondera]

I personally like the lesser power. Prior to SB's release, I could just wade in and pretty much do whatever I wanted after a few flashes and a circle of scorn. Heck, I even tried an experiment once with just doing NOTHING after a few seconds of aggro accumulation and I never once lost threat. The only consideration was making sure I didn't take too much damage on a big pull. Now, the occasional loss of threat gives me something to do besides my rotation and defensive abilities. It's a bit more dynamic and grants some challenge back to the role.

TL;DR the challenge excites me

[Baci]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the Accessories going forward would be role locked? I seem to remember seeing that somewhere. So does that mean Slaying gear won't even be an option for tanks? I don't know that's why I'm asking.

All SB accsesories are role locked. Old ones arent

[Catwho]

Is DRK easier? Yes. With Grit on, tanking things are pretty stupid easy.

Is DRK still fun? Well....

We got what we wished for - it's a hell of a lot easier to keep Darkside going even in the thick of battle. (Can it even be lost any more?) MP restorr actions took a hit forcing us to do our MP restore combo, which is fortunately also our best damage combo.

I'm missing all my toys that would make me temporarily invincible, so now I'm just a broody MP sponge for the healers. I'm missing my dodge ability, so I get hit straight on every damn time. The change to Reprisal is okay, and despite what everyone in this thread is saying about enmity, endgame tanks will be fine so long as they trade Shirk and Provoke.

I deliberately have been ONLY leveling my tank and healer in dungeons to try to help out the queues. But now I'm dreading going back to Bardham's Mettle because it's just not a fun as it was two weeks ago.

[YitharV2]

Wasn't it said somewhere that the Accessories going forward would be role locked? I seem to remember seeing that somewhere. So does that mean Slaying gear won't even be an option for tanks? I don't know that's why I'm asking.


EDIT: Found a thread on it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-current-gear

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._jobs/diz9cl6/

I wrote this in another megathread, but writing here in more relevant thread. With the reversal of tank attack power calculation back to only strength and with the fact that level 60 slaying accessories are still equipable by tanks, your best in damage accessories are these slaying accessories. If the level 60+ fending accessories don't have strength, these could literally be your best in damage accessories through 70.
I only had a brief opportunity to log in before heading to work so please let me know if I'm missing something.

[Kazrah]

I wouldn't certainly call it "hard" now. It's slightly more challenging, and it makes tanking a little more fun and tense.

This sort of mentality makes tanks a dying breed. Yes, it's challenging and fun for tryhards, but for normal human beings, it's a key incentive to avoid tanking.

Again, if devs want to make tanking less stressful but keep tank damage down, one way of doing it is by using VIT to increase just the enmity generation from either weaponskills and abilities or--better yet-- increase the enmity generation bonus from tank stances.

[Furious]

To continue from my post on the last page:

Base vs. scaling. The difference is important.

Lets say tanks start at 150 enmity units per second, dps at 100. DPS gains 100% damage per 10 itemlevels, while tanks gain 50% per the same.
After 10 ilvls, tanks now do 225, dps do 200.
After 20 ilvls, tanks do 300, dps do 300
After 30 ilvls, tanks do 375, dps do 400
After 40 ilvls, tanks dp 450, dps do 500

So on so on. The numbers are completely made up, concentrate on the paradigm.

The rate at which tanks scale compared to dps matters as much or more than the base does as time goes on. It is something that will likely have to be changed later to fix a problem that we can see beginning today, even though it mightn't be a problem today.

If they want to keep the actual dps numbers down from tanks, they need to give tanks an enmity scalar that functions to replace the enmity gain scaling loss that comes from lower relative damage to dps. The ratio that SE wants tanks to do damage relative to the dps is neither here nor there; it's not that important. A lower relative damage % actually makes it easier for the tank, because giving up damage becomes less punitive. If tanks are doing 75% of the damage of a dps and are forced to give up 20% of their damage to stay alive thorugh a mechanic, they lose more relative damage than if they are balanced around doing only 50% of the dps. In either case, the tank has to be balanced around being able to actually tank the mobs (having enough threat to hold them, and living through their damage).

So, bring on the lower tank damage I say; who cares? What is actually important is that enmity SCALING is increased so that it doesn't feel significantly worse to progress your gear along with your group. Instead of making vit apply to attack power (and thus increasing damage), it could just as easily apply an invisible (or visible!) enmity multiplier instead. This would keep the tank damage numbers lower, while allowing their enmity to continue scaling at a rate equal to their gear. It could be based on vitality, str, itemlevel.. it doesn't really matter. Enmity multiplier needs to scale better with gear increases. Multiplying the base and calling it a day does not do the job.

Edit: didn't read the whole thread so didn't notice this had already been said! Makes sense I guess, since its such a blatantly obvious problem with a blatantly obvious solution.