Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Exterium]

No class hits as hard as samurai, although I have been made well aware of bards being able to hit for 25k. Bard's dots also outperform Summoner's. Look at Caustic Bite and Stormbite. 5 and 15 potency per tick higher then both of summoner's dots but bard's get 120 potency on the application.

You "may" hit for 25k if all planets line up and you get a direct hit crit barraged refulgent arrow while under Raging Strikes, that may not happen ever in a 2 hour raid, in fact, I've only seen this ONCE in all my SB bard playtime.

You never reapply your dots, they get refreshed with a 100 potency weaponskill.

I don't talk about what I think, I talk about the data we have at this point, and SMN, besides what this forum seems to think, hits way harder than BRD, at the same lvl as a BLM and harder than a RDM.

EDIT: You seem to be forgetting your third dot, you, and every summoner, your pet is essentially a 110 potency dot with utility.

[Ariomi]

I don't talk about what I think, I talk about the data we have at this point, and SMN, besides what this forums seems to think, hits way harder than BRD, at the same lvl as a BLM and harder than a RDM.

And as far as I've seen, this just isn't true. I've been in parties, I've seen people's dps. I have been in. Nothing Summoner has can hit for 25k and I did stone sky sea over and over and over until I got an ahk morn direct hit crit under the effect of contagion that boosts it's damage. I also tweaked my smn rotation right around 30 times and yet when I encounter a bard, they do massively more dps.


Smn and Bard dots work almost identical, except they are reversed. Bard hard casts dots then keeps them up. Summoner doesn't have to hard cast their dots until they run out three times. The difference? Bard get's 120 potency when they first cast them on both dots, then 100 potency when they need to refresh them. Summoner's dot's don't get any potency added when we refresh them unless we hard cast Miasma 3.

[Exterium]

snip

This is like talking to a wall...

It doesn't matter how big the number is, it doesn't matter AT ALL, what matters is the overall DPS, judging damage by "big dick hits" is just plain stupid.

How are BRD dots better than SMN dots? you have a pet that does the same a dot does, and adds 15 secs of magic vulnerability every minute, and it is a 110 potency dot, one hundred and ten, your pet alone is doing more dps than both BRD dots to a boss.

[Ariomi]

This is like talking to a wall...

I could say the same thing to you. But you have no idea what you are talking about.

And I've looked at overall dps. A bard's dots have no cast time. Miasma 3 has a cast time. Bard's dots have more potency overall 570 + 670 compared to Summoner's 400 and 450. Your dot's tick harder (100 potency vs Summoner's 80). Bard's dots are so strong they still outdamage Summoner's dots if I use shadow flare.

Summoner's strongest spammable spell is Ruin 3. It is 150 potency and we can cast it 9 times before we run out of mana. It is the same potency as Heavy shot. How many times can you use heavy shot before you are out of tp? (Just making a point. I'm well aware of how dreadwyrm works.)

Oh and Refulgent Arrow and Ruin 4 work almost the exact same way except Summoner's get a 15% chance to use ruin 4 which does 200 potency while bard gets a 20% chance to do 300 potency.

With Barrage and Emp arrow you get 690 potency attack every 90 seconds that can crit for all three strikes. You can use this immediately at the start of a fight. Summoner can't even use ahk morn's 680 potency until we have built up all the aetherflow (takes two minutes)

Pitch perfect even does more damage then death flare does at 3 stacks. Pitch perfect 420 potency vs Deathflare's 400. Bard arguably even beats summoner's Aoe attacks as Summoner has no spammable Aoe move. Every Aoe Summoner has is either on a minute cooldown (Shadowflare, Aetherflow, Radiant Shield Technically since it can hit more then one add) Two Minute cooldown (Ahk morn) or three minute cooldown* (Enkindle). So tell me again... How does a bard with no cast times, stronger dots, higher mobility and stronger attacks not outdps summoner in almost every way?

[Paladinleeds]

snip

Tin foil hat time, but I'm wondering if this combined with the way SCH has been handled is a way to try and get everyone off SMN/SCH so they [SE] can split it with less community backlash? I know, it's conspiracy theorycrafting to the max, but still, it makes you wonder. Especially with how they have mentioned they wanted to split the job off so it's not 2 jobs bound to a single class.

[Ariomi]

Tin foil hat time, but I'm wondering if this combined with the way SCH has been handled is a way to try and get everyone off SMN/SCH so they [SE] can split it with less community backlash? I know, it's conspiracy theorycrafting to the max, but still, it makes you wonder. Especially with how they have mentioned they wanted to split the job off so it's not 2 jobs bound to a single class.

They have had the longest time to accomplish this. If they wanted to do just that, Why didn't they split if before storm blood? Red Mage and Samurai where in Uldah. They could have easily split summoner and Scholar entirely. Just have them be two separate classes in the Arc guild. If they wanted to do that, I don't get why they haven't.

[Fyce]

-snip-

Why are you comparing two jobs while purposefully leaving these aside:
- The pet sustained damage (!)
- Aetherflow usage (Fester is 900 potency in 15s every minute)
- Ruination+DWT buff
- Deathflare
- Demi-Bahamut 160 potency hits every 1.5s
- Akh Morn hits twice (meaning 2 times per 120s, while "Barrage and Emp arrow" is once every 90s)
- Enkindle which isn't a 3mn cooldown because of Ruin IV procs

SMN is a job which damage comes from all kind of sources. If you don't include half of them, of course it'll seems weak. But that's also completly unfair to do so.
So, stop comparing two jobs if you don't take everything into account. It doesn't serve your point and makes you look like you either don't know what you are talking about, or that you are dishonest.

[Ariomi]

Why are you comparing two jobs while purposefully leaving these aside:
- The pet sustained damage (!)
- Aetherflow usage (Fester is 900 potency in 15s every minute)
- Ruination+DWT buff
- Deathflare
- Demi-Bahamut 160 potency hits every 1.5s
- Akh Morn hits twice (meaning 2 times per 120s, while "Barrage and Emp arrow" is once every 90s)
- Enkindle which isn't a 3mn cooldown because of Ruin IV procs

Same reason I didn't include Raging Strikes, Foe Req, Battle Voice, or The Wanderer's Minuet.
Ahk Morn Can't be used at the start of the fight and it's only possible to buff a single ahk morn. (Contagion doesn't last quite long enough.)
Barrage and Emp can be used instantly at the start of the fight, can be buffed by raging strikes (10%) a song of Bard's choice, and a 10% crit buff.

ahk morn can only be buffed 10%. God Forbid the damage, the direct hit and the crit buff cause emp arrow to direct crit hit for all three strikes. Barrage will have gone through a good chunk of it's cooldown by the time bahamut is ever summoned.

Emp Arrow is 230 potency every 15 seconds or 920 potency per minute. Sidewinder is 260.
I included deathflare. I compared it to Bard's Pitchperfect which is a 20 base potency stronger then deathflare assuming a Bard is able to get three stacks per minute.



If you want to compare Smn buffs to Bard's

Smn has Contagion (10% magic buff for 15 seconds)
Dreadwyrm (10% all damage for 16)
Ruination (Increases ruin by 20 potency... woo)
Radiant Shield (Oh but wait... can't use this on a dummy cause....)

Bard has
Raging Strikes (10% for 20 seconds)
Straighter Shot (10% crit for 20 seconds)
Foe Req (3% damage increase till it runs out)
The Wanderer's Minuet (2% crit buff)
Battle Voice (Direct Hit Buff by 15% for 20)

The ruination debuff is roughly the equivalent of Iron Jaws giving 100 potency when a Bard refreshes their dots.

Oh and did you forget bard can auto attack now? Auto attacks are 100 potency. Garuda's basic auto attack is does about the same damage as a summoner's 100 potency ruin. SO what about the pet's sustained damage? Bard Auto attacks on his own.

Enkindle is a 3 min cooldown factored on Rng. More often then not, It's cooldown is still over two minutes.

[Fyce]

-Snip-

I listed you some stuff that you missed, and you still managed to ignore some of them. Especially the most important ones. You're definitly dishonest in your argument, only cherry picking what you want.

Stop this pointless comparison between skills. Compare actual full parses.