Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

[Saito_S]

My goodness. Bit of a long post incoming, but eh, servers are down and I'm not in bed yet so I'm bored.

Texa was right about one thing for sure (well, more than one thing, but this one thing stuck out to me):

Tonkra, a lot of your posts come of as EXTREMELY condescending and arrogant. "GOD! Why can't these plebs possess the deep understanding of How Final Fantasy Works, that only True Fans can understand?!!?"

That is how you come across. At least to me.

Also, you might be interested to know, O Lord and Keeper of True Final Fantasy system knowledge, that you're flat wrong about FFIX. You've mentioned it SEVERAL times now, lumping it in (as "FFVII - FFX") with the "there are no jobs because everyone can learn everything!" type games. Stiener cannot learn Fire or Thunder, because he is a Knight. Vivi cannot learn Steal, because he is a Black Mage. Nobody but Freya can Jump, because she is the Dragoon. Etc.

So how do you square your assertions that This Job Must Work This Way with the fact that FFIX was WAY more committed to each character having a job than any game in the main (e.g. FF Tactics doesn't count) series since V? And yet, Garnet and Eiko were both summoner-healers. Sure you couldn't shuffle the jobs around like in V, but each character had their job, which boxed them in heavily to certain types of abilities. VI, VII, and VIII all worked in the opposite manner (with VI, in particular, being sort of a hybrid since everyone could learn any magic spell with no restriction whatsoever aside from Umaro, yet each character also had unique skills beyond just Limit Breaks).

For that matter, what ABOUT VI, VII, and VIII? That's three games, including two of the most beloved and influential in the entire franchise, that all eschewed the concept of "summoner" entirely. ANYONE could summon whatever they wanted if they had the right item equipped. You can't just discount those because they don't suit your bizarrely obsessive class-box argument.

If you're going to talk down to people, at least know your shit.

A couple other things:

If you grant SMN a proper heal we could grant every dd a heal.. because "we want it".

Why? It's TWO DPS classes, both casters, that wold have a decent heal. No one is asking for a strong cure spell on DRGs, nor will anyone go "SMN can heal well?? Why can't I heal on DRG then??" Also note, decent - an RDM is no substitute for a full healer in situations where serious damage is coming out. It's e backup/support/emergency tool, and of course is useful for solo'ing and in PotD, but that's all. Also SMN is already not pure-DPS all day, every day... Raise!! It's the only DPS class that can raise! (well, or was, before RDM). So how does that square with your paradigm?

this is the only "unique selling point" of rdm atm

Pfft, hardly. You could just straight-up rip Vercure out of the skillset, just un-exist the entire spell from the game, and I'd still play RDM. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm happier having it, but your comment here is at best a huge stretch.

And in reference to the fact that XIV DRK is a tank:

Thats one thing that Yoshida "fucked up" at this point.

lol

[Tonkra]

There's no reason to believe that anything removed from the game is coming back ever.

And thats a complete non-argument.

Why? It's TWO DPS classes, both casters, that wold have a decent heal.

How would that solve the lack of damage for summoners in any way now?

On the contrary a summoner with "sustain" (pet heal over time) would grant you more dps, because with a better physick spell you would spend more time healing instead of doing damage. A heal over time heals automatically over time while you could perform damage spells.

If you're going to talk down to people, at least know your shit.

Yes and i know that FFXI and FFXIV rely on the traditional job class system (with the typical artifact armors) roles and whatever comes next to it. And it is not reyling on FFVII, FFIX or anything which have none of the traditional job class system. Which doesnt mean that these are influenced by them or come close to them.
FF tactics makes use of the job system which strictly seperates the jobs from each other. How they do with FFXI and FFXIV (SMN/SCH are here the exception because they are the only jobs that share the base class)

No one is asking for a strong cure spell on DRGs

Well in the past i could have asked for my BLM to improve the healing effect of "Physick" while it was equipped as well..
Why didnt i do it? Because i dont expect a damage dealer with huge burst damage like BLM to heal.

an RDM is no substitute for a full healer in situations where serious damage is coming out. It's e backup/support/emergency tool, and of course is useful for solo'ing and in PotD, but that's all. Also SMN is already not pure-DPS all day, every day... Raise!! It's the only DPS class that can raise! (well, or was, before RDM). So how does that square with your paradigm?

Thats because of the base class system which Yoshida wants to get rid actually. SMN has heal and raise just because they share the base class.

[Ilenya]

Yes and i know that FFXI and FFXIV rely on the traditional job class system (with the typical artifact armors) roles and whatever comes next to it. And it is not reyling on FFVII, FFIX or anything which have none of the traditional job class system. Which doesnt mean that these are influenced by them or come close to them.

Legitimate question. You have played FFIX, right? Zidane, Steiner, Vivi, Kuja, all them? Because the more you mention that it didn't have traditional jobs, the more I wonder...

[Tonkra]

Legitimate question. You have played FFIX, right? Zidane, Steiner, Vivi, Kuja, all them? Because the more you mention that it didn't have traditional jobs, the more I wonder...

Why do you come along with FFIX when its clear that FFXI and FFXIV jobs arent clearly based on these titles? You wont find a samurai or any other jobs like that in these titles..,



additionally it makes me wonder how we came from "my pet dies very fast, they dropped of sustain, SMN's damage is too low" to a "i want to heal my party members". Then please give my BLM heal too, because it gives me a disadvantage not to heal and raise, while RDM and SMN are able to semi-heal

[Ilenya]

Why do you come along with FFIX when its clear that FFXI and FFXIV jobs arent clearly based on these titles? You wont find a samurai or any other jobs like that in these titles..,

additionally it makes me wonder how we came from "my pet dies very fast, they dropped of sustain, SMN's damage is too low" to a "i want to heal my party members". Then please give my BLM heal too, because it gives me a disadvantage not to heal, while RDM and SMN are able to semi-heal

I mentioned them because you said summoners didn't have the ability to heal outside of summons. I just gave you times when they did. Then you started saying some didn't follow the job system...Which again, I gave you the ones that did. You seem to be moving the goalposts on that, but either way, I would like to point out that comparing FFXI jobs to FFXIV jobs isn't even something you should be doing. They aren't the same.

Point said, I've never specifically said SMN should have a strong heal. Most of my comments on the healing were traits that would keep the strength of physick currently the same, since we can assume it is not going anywhere, but give it an additional effect to heal the pets better (Either as a regen or just a stronger heal).

Why did you list FFIII jobs there?

[Ariomi]

Thats because of the base class system which Yoshida wants to get rid actually. SMN has heal and raise just because they share the base class.

Yet.. Summoner used to be unique as the only dps class to rez. You are strangely hypocritical when it suits you.
Red Mage now has Rez and Summoner is no longer unique.
And Yoshi P has had plenty of time to get rid of the class system. Storm blood was a perfect opportunity to do so. Yet he didn't. Your arguments are flawed and your too toxic to offer any sort of constructive feedback.

If you want to talk about old final fantasy games, Give Summoner knights of the round and let me solo most content. Or I'll happily pay Yojimbo to kill my enemies for me

[Tonkra]

Yet.. Summoner used to be unique as the only dps class to rez. You are strangely hypocritical when it suits you.
Red Mage now has Rez and Summoner is no longer unique.

Im hypocritical when it doesnt suit SMN and on the other hand doesnt solve the problem that you are talking about (dmg lack, pet dies often).

A party member heal isnt there to solve these problems. if the problem would be "i cant heal my party members" that would be the strict solution for that, right. I would support your suggestion if in my opinion (and sorry that i am not your opinion) if it would straighten up the summoner what he is supposed to be (that is: doing damage and his pets). Which goes along with being able to keeping his pets alive or increasing the damage of the SMN itself or the pets.

and this doesnt need a stronger party member healing skill. As i said im not against you, the summoner should be able to keep his pet alive. But i think increasing physick healing abillity is a squishy solution. Get rid of that useless spell and give him a proper pet heal.

Storm blood was a perfect opportunity to do so. Yet he didn't. Your arguments are flawed and your too toxic to offer any sort of constructive feedback.

I already gave constructive feedback here and that is: pet heal.

Also in this thread here.. since the SMN has many other problems, and that is not "lacking in healing my party members" (having only garuda egi out for 80% of the time in groups).

etc pp:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...on-Bahamut-now..

[Ariomi]

I(dmg lack, pet dies often).

A party member heal isnt there to solve these problems.
I already gave constructive feedback here and that is: pet heal.

Summoner's lost their pet heal, It's not something that is likely to come back, just like 1.0 just like perfect dodge. Summoner's need a heal to use on their pet, is does nothing but help the group more if they have the option to make it heal party members. You haven't said a single constructive thing.

Read through your suggestion page, Do you even know why old summoner's used Garuda 80% of the time? Your ideas sound like you don't even have a clue.

[Caduagm]

useless as aleays.

Ok, let me ask you something.
You are a BLM what are you even doing on this thread?
Spreading toxicity for no reason?

[Ariomi]

Ok, let me ask you something.
You are a BLM what are you even doing on this thread?
Spreading toxicity for no reason?

Tonkra is toxic as he recently submitted a complete Summoner rework with new summons despite the fact that the summoner quests in ffxiv explain why you can't summon ramuh or other's like him. Ironically, he says in that post that he wants to make Summoners more useful in groups. It's really funny actually