The boring mage of red

[Tila]

To be fair, RDM would become a bench-warmer without even getting to set foot in EX/Savage content if it had been designed as a generalist.

The DPS label works, but the gameplay leaves much to be desired due to the sword seeing so little use and just how it was integrated in said gameplay. I'll say it until things change or I keel over dead, but you could remove Riposte => Zwerchhau => Redoublement from the job, replace the manaburn phase with a 3-step Ultima spell (Verflare => Verholy => Ultima?) and see next to no difference at all. And that says quite a few things about the design.
Turn-based combat does not treat hybrids the same way as live/MMO combat does. MMO combat has mechanics that work for hybrids that turn-based games like the console FFs cannot supply nor replicate. I can list examples, if you want.

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Staying on topic, spellspam is something I find very dull. You may be pressing buttons faster than a BLM or SMN, but you're still sitting in one spot spamming spells. A sword & spell hybrid feeling dull because the design forces you to not use the sword, nor does it allow you to be flashy by mixing both in combat. Who'd have thunk it, right?

Don't think you're quiet getting. RDM has more or less always been primarily a spellcaster. You're argument is it should change simply because its an MMO. Thats terrible logic. You want it to be something other than Red Mage.

You didn't want Red Mage, you wanted a spell casting sword user. Guess what, we do have that in both DRK and PLD. Or are those also not magic enough for you?

[Duelle]

RDM has more or less always been primarily a spellcaster. Your argument is it should change simply because its an MMO.

And your argument is basically "RDM was used in a specific way in the console FFs, and I'm ignoring that turn-based combat requires different design from other game genres". SE already took the first step in the right direction when they gave RDM enspells in FFXI, so all I'm doing is following that idea to its logical conclusion, and using examples from other MMOs to help bring that to fruition. As I said, if you want I can give you a list of mechanics that work for a sword & spell hybrid, which in essence is what we call a Red Mage. Or are you going to tell me that a system where a RDM is comboing melee skills and white/black magic spells (which can be done in a couple of ways) does not play into the hybrid nature of the job?

you wanted a spell casting sword user.

That is what a Red Mage is... A class that uses spells and sword. If you wanted a ranged caster that does white and black magic, we do have the Sage job sitting in the wings. If you really want to redefine a job with the white vs black thing, you could even use the Oracle/Ying-yang Mage/Mystic job for that.

Lots of things change when you move into an MMO. Our Summoner is not a black mage with sprite art instead of particle effects, but a job that has a pet and a resource system that allows it to call Bahamut (something the FFXI summoner could not do). Our ninja is not solely justified in its existence by dual wield and throwing consumable items, but by being up-close in combat with Mudras. Our Fighter/Warrior is not just a guy that auto-attacks/presses the Fight command a lot, but a tank with skills that change depending on their current stance. Our Scholar is a dedicated healer instead of the white/black magic hybrid it was in FFXI. Likewise our version of Geomancer will probably be a ranged nuker or healer, depending on which side of the elements SE chooses to go with. Our Templar might end up being another tank to join PLD, DRK and WAR instead of a debuff-oriented knight. "It played like this in the console FFs" is not an acceptable excuse, especially when it comes to classes that were held back by the limits of turn-based combat.

[Tila]

And your argument is basically "RDM was used in a specific way in the console FFs, and I'm ignoring that turn-based combat requires different design from other game genres". SE already took the first step in the right direction when they gave RDM enspells in FFXI, so all I'm doing is following that idea to its logical conclusion, and using examples from other MMOs to help bring that to fruition. As I said, if you want I can give you a list of mechanics that work for a sword & spell hybrid, which in essence is what we call a Red Mage. Or are you going to tell me that a system where a RDM is comboing melee skills and white/black magic spells (which can be done in a couple of ways) does not play into the hybrid nature of the job?
That is what a Red Mage is... A class that uses spells and sword. If you wanted a ranged caster that does white and black magic, we do have the Sage job sitting in the wings. If you really want to redefine a job with the white vs black thing, you could even use the Oracle/Ying-yang Mage/Mystic job for that.

Lots of things change when you move into an MMO. Our Summoner is not a black mage with sprite art instead of particle effects, but a job that has a pet and a resource system that allows it to call Bahamut (something the FFXI summoner could not do). Our ninja is not solely justified in its existence by dual wield and throwing consumable items, but by being up-close in combat with Mudras. Our Fighter/Warrior is not just a guy that auto-attacks/presses the Fight command a lot, but a tank with skills that change depending on their current stance. Our Scholar is a dedicated healer instead of the white/black magic hybrid it was in FFXI. Likewise our version of Geomancer will probably be a ranged nuker or healer, depending on which side of the elements SE chooses to go with. Our Templar might end up being another tank to join PLD, DRK and WAR instead of a debuff-oriented knight. "It played like this in the console FFs" is not an acceptable excuse, especially when it comes to classes that were held back by the limits of turn-based combat.

Even in FFXI RDM's job wasnt to melee. You had your melee buffs, and that was it. You then sat there and melee attacked during the very rare occasions you werent constantly casting. Many RDM flat out didnt melee and would switch to staffs. If anything, RDM is more melee heavy in FFXIV than it was in FFXI.

Once more, you wanted it to be something its never been.

Show me an iteration of RDM that primarily meleed and you'll have an argument, untill then you're just saying you wanted it to be something its not.

[Duelle]

Even in FFXI RDM's job wasnt to melee. You had your melee buffs, and that was it. You then sat there and melee attacked during the very rare occasions you werent constantly casting. Many RDM flat out didnt melee and would switch to staffs.

Seems you forgot that the circumstances and design mistakes made in XI are part of what pigeonholed RDM into the refreshbot we know and hate.

There's a lot of ifs involved. If Refresh hadn't been exclusive to RDM, there would have been more reason to melee and cast spells. If gear swaps hadn't taken over the whole game, a RDM geared for melee could have taken part opening skillchains for the heavier melee like WAR, DRK and SAM without being expected to also babysit the whole party (bonus being that you'd have a melee that can not only open SCs, but also Magic Burst them). If Haste had been AoE or instant, that's one less spell to take away from melee uptime. If people didn't overhunt, RDM's combat-oriented facets wouldn't have been rendered worthless by level correction. If we had more readily-available healer jobs than WHM, RDM would have never been pushed into replacing them post-TAU.

As I said, Enspells was a step in the right direction. That, sadly, got throttled by overhunting and the terrible leveling system for skills.

Once more, you wanted it to be something its never been.

I'm following an idea to its logical conclusion, since I understand that console RPG class design and MMO class design are two entirely different beasts, with the latter providing opportunities and direction for growth that the former cannot.

So I'll ask again, are you going to tell me that a system where a RDM is comboing melee skills and white/black magic spells does not play into the hybrid nature of the job?

[YokeM]

I`ve said it before and I will say it again: The Job feels unfinished!
As it stands right now, the melee feels like just another cooldown you use every ~40 seconds. As Duelle has stated, you could replace it with a powerful spellcombo and would hardly feel any difference to RDM playstyle.

I`m very happy, that so many people feel RDM would need some changes. And there is a very easy solution for most problems:

Let us fill the mana gauge faster!

1. This would solve the overall boringness. Spending 6 - 8 GCDs casting then switch to melee. The experience between range casting and melee fighting is entirely different. Having to addapt to both and having to readily switch would really spice things up.

2. Integration of the sword. There you have it. You would actually use your sword instead of just ramming the crystal into the hilt.

And stop complaining that RDM isn`t melee. He should fucking put his sword away if he isn`t.

[Hyrist]

Again, RDM is 1/3 melee at its peak melee. Additionally you should actually know the philosophy behind the kind of sword you're so on about too before you harp about it so much.

The rapier class sword was not a war sword so much as it was a dueling weapon, then often used as a weapon of station among officers of rank when firearms became more prevent. But even it its heyday they were not meant for frequent clashing, but rather for accurate striking. The game design fits the history and philosophy of the weapon - The rapier is not a clashing sword.

Also, Red Mages just happen to be some of the most vocal jobs in its history, you need only look as far as FFXI for that proof. I woulden't go putting too much stock on how loud people get about it. After all Duelle's been tooting the same horn for over a decade now.

[YokeM]

Again, RDM is 1/3 melee at its peak melee. Additionally you should actually know the philosophy behind the kind of sword you're so on about too before you harp about it so much.

It is not! If RDM would spend 1/3 in melee, would not complain at all.

The rapier class sword was not a war sword so much as it was a dueling weapon, then often used as a weapon of station among officers of rank when firearms became more prevent. But even it its heyday they were not meant for frequent clashing, but rather for accurate striking. The game design fits the history and philosophy of the weapon - The rapier is not a clashing sword.

Are we really going to talk about what a weapon is supposed to be in RL? Are we then going to talk about how DRK greatswords have hardly ever been used, duo to being immensely unpractical. Or the fact that you normally use a lance to keep your enemys at distance? My point is that he shouldn`t have a rapier if he isn`t going to use it! Not if it is historical precendent as a war sword.